1921 Herpolsheimers graded w/o mark

[hammertime]

I apologize in advance, I try to mostly lurk on this forum because just about everyone else on here is so much more knowledgeable than me, and I know you all have known each other for years and no one has a clue who I am, but an aspect of this discussion has really stuck in my craw. Brian you said the design looks like something from the 70s, "inspired by disco". Someone posted evidence the design existed several decades earlier, so clearly NOT inspired by disco. Now you're trying to use that as evidence the cards couldn't have been made in 1921? What? Talk about moving the goalposts. Even if the designs posted were from the 30s or 40s it doesn't mean they were all brand new, some could have been around for years before that, correct? The point of that being posted (I believe) was to establish the design existed well before the 70s. NOT that the design hadn't been around for even longer. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[GeoPoto]

If I read 272 posts, am I going to be convinced that these cards are real or fake?

Reader's Digest Version: Brian asserts that the cards are fake, because someone long ago told him they were fake. Brian believes the person was in a position to know and had no obvious reason to lie about it.

Meanwhile, numerous hobby stalwarts have analyzed the cards and concluded that they are real, including PSA. As such the preponderance of people (including myself) have concluded that the probability is very high that they are real, and Brian's account is flawed in some unknowable way.

Despite the over-heated use of phrases like "lock-solid proof", "conclusively proven real", and ". . . that fact (that Brian is wrong)", there will never be complete certainty because there is no practical way to definitively prove the cards are real. Expert opinion is occasionally wrong.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

If I read 272 posts, am I going to be convinced that these cards are real or fake?

Reader's Digest Version: Brian asserts that the cards are fake, because someone long ago told him they were fake. Brian believes the person was in a position to know and had no obvious reason to lie about it.

Meanwhile, numerous hobby stalwarts have analyzed the cards and concluded that they are real, including PSA. As such the preponderance of people (including myself) have concluded that the probability is very high that they are real, and Brian's account is flawed in some unknowable way.

Despite the over-heated use of phrases like "lock-solid proof", "conclusively proven real", and ". . . that fact (that Brian is wrong)", there will never be complete certainty because there is no practical way to definitively prove the cards are real. Expert opinion is occasionally wrong.

George,

Well put. Just not heated from my side. Amused.

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

If I read 272 posts, am I going to be convinced that these cards are real or fake?

Reader's Digest Version: Brian asserts that the cards are fake, because someone long ago told him they were fake. Brian believes the person was in a position to know and had no obvious reason to lie about it.

Meanwhile, numerous hobby stalwarts have analyzed the cards and concluded that they are real, including PSA. As such the preponderance of people (including myself) have concluded that the probability is very high that they are real, and Brian's account is flawed in some unknowable way.

Despite the over-heated use of phrases like "lock-solid proof", "conclusively proven real", and ". . . that fact (that Brian is wrong)", there will never be complete certainty because there is no practical way to definitively prove the cards are real. Expert opinion is occasionally wrong.

Your overall point stands, but I have a minor quibble. The issue is not the "Brian's account is flawed in some unknowable way." The issue is that, even accepting everything he claims as 100% true, his conclusion that the cards are fake is built on several logical fallacies.

Even if everyone could agree that nothing is truly certain, the anecdotal evidence that these are fake is laughably weak. It reminded me of Thanksgiving this year, when my dad quoted the My Pillow guy as gospel and assured me that all the evidence I needed was that the My Pillow guy knows his stuff.

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

your overall point stands, but i have a minor quibble. The issue is not the "brian's account is flawed in some unknowable way." the issue is that, even accepting everything he claims as 100% true, his conclusion that the cards are fake is built on several logical fallacies.

Even if everyone could agree that nothing is truly certain, the anecdotal evidence that these are fake is laughably weak. It reminded me of thanksgiving this year, when my dad quoted the my pillow guy as gospel and assured me that all the evidence i needed was that the my pillow guy knows his stuff.

lol!

[rand1com]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

Your overall point stands, but I have a minor quibble. The issue is not the "Brian's account is flawed in some unknowable way." The issue is that, even accepting everything he claims as 100% true, his conclusion that the cards are fake is built on several logical fallacies.

Even if everyone could agree that nothing is truly certain, the anecdotal evidence that these are fake is laughably weak. It reminded me of Thanksgiving this year, when my dad quoted the My Pillow guy as gospel and assured me that all the evidence I needed was that the My Pillow guy knows his stuff.

Reading this one post makes the former several hundred worth it!!!

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by hammertime

I apologize in advance, I try to mostly lurk on this forum because just about everyone else on here is so much more knowledgeable than me, and I know you all have known each other for years and no one has a clue who I am, but an aspect of this discussion has really stuck in my craw. Brian you said the design looks like something from the 70s, "inspired by disco". Someone posted evidence the design existed several decades earlier, so clearly NOT inspired by disco. Now you're trying to use that as evidence the cards couldn't have been made in 1921? What? Talk about moving the goalposts. Even if the designs posted were from the 30s or 40s it doesn't mean they were all brand new, some could have been around for years before that, correct? The point of that being posted (I believe) was to establish the design existed well before the 70s. NOT that the design hadn't been around for even longer. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Andy,

I was told by the dealer that had these cards in his case at the Robert Morris Show in May 1999 that the cards were fake as he waived his hand over the case. He also said they were made in the 1970's. I looked at them, handled them and observed the backs which I thought look like they were made in the 1970's because they looked like disco dance floors.

Now, another member here trying to provide evidence the backs were real, provided the following link in post #240 yesterday at #921 a.m.

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

Just one little problem with the evidence:

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

So, let's review:

1.) The dealer at the Robert Morris Show said the cards were fake when we met in May 1999 and made in the 1970's. I reviewed the cards and I had a problem with the back design.

2.) From the link provided in post #240 yesterday:

It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.


Now, these basic points and I have pointed out other ones are that the cards are fake. They were in 1999 and 2004 with the first batch and 2019 and this year with the second. Waiting on three times the charm, but that will not result in them being real.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Andy,

I was told by the dealer that had these cards in his case at the Robert Morris Show in May 1999 that the cards were fake as he waived his hand over

I asked you nicely to stop saying "waived" (although technically I asked you to stop saying "waiving" so maybe that is why you said "waived" this time).

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by molenick

I asked you nicely to stop saying "waived" (although technically I asked you to stop saying "waiving" so maybe that is why you said "waived" this time).

Michael,

Which post? You stated that in your last post last night. By the way waving you good morning.

[molenick]

Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn

Michael,

Which post? You stated that in your last post last night. By the way waving you good morning.

In post 280 I said "Well, it is too late to continue arguing. But can you do me one favor and please stop saying "waiving"? That means putting a player on waivers (among other definitions). I think we can all agree that "waving" is the correct word."

In post 281 you seemed to agree with me and blamed it on a cold. You said "Waving goodnight and my cold obviously has had one side effect."

Then in post 287 (which I quoted in my post 290) you said "as he waived his hand over the case".

In order to find at least one thing we can all agree on, can we agree that any form of the word "waive" is not correct for describing someone waving his hand at the cards?

[Brian Van Horn]

Sorry, but still have the cold. Let's wave on.

[frankbmd]

Herpolsheimer's Impact on Climate Change should be explored further. Carbon 14 dating to establish the age of the paper/cardboard used in the creation of all the real and faux Herpolsheimer exemplars is needed information. Who among you is certain of the value of Herpolsheimer carbon credits? Isn't everyone who deals in Herpolsheimers breaking the law including auction houses? Aren't more federal agents needed to monitor the Herpolsheimer card market? These are all relevant questions that need to be answered. You can't make this up, but I can.

Furthermore the gentlemen in 1999 and 2004 who espoused the Fabricated Herpolsheimer Hypothesis (FHH) need to be identified and subpoenaed for questioning. Was he/she/they really a dealer(s)? Where was he/she/they born? Were he/she/they an interplanetary refugee transported to earth via asteroid? Is this all part of an intergalactic conspiracy? My friends on this forum, I fear, are merely scratching the surface of the FHH.

My advice is to forget the cards and invest in the Herpolsheimer short pants market, or should you "short" the Herpolsheimer long pants market. My advice to Leon is to be wary of Herpolsheimer pants flippers. Where there's a flipper, there's a scammer.

Carry on.

[scooter729]

Despite trailing right now by 28,000, another week of this thread and Brian will surpass Leon for most lifetime N54 posts!

[Brian Van Horn]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Herpolsheimer's Impact on Climate Change should be explored further. Carbon 14 dating to establish the age of the paper/cardboard used in the creation of all the real and faux Herpolsheimer exemplars is needed information. Who among you is certain of the value of Herpolsheimer carbon credits? Isn't everyone who deals in Herpolsheimers breaking the law including auction houses? Aren't more federal agents needed to monitor the Herpolsheimer card market? These are all relevant questions that need to be answered. You can't make this up, but I can.

Furthermore the gentleman in 1999 or 2004 who espoused the Fabricated Herpolsheimer Hypothesis (FHH) needs to be identified and subpoenaed for questioning. Was he/she really a dealer? Where was he/she born? Was he/she an interplanetary refugee transported to earth via asteroid? Is this all part of an intergalactic conspiracy? My friends on this forum, I fear, are merely scratching the surface of the FHH.

My advice is to forget the cards and invest in the Herpolsheimer short pants market, or should you "short" the Herpolsheimer long pants market. My advice to Leon is to be wary of Herpolsheimer pants flippers. Where there's a flipper, there's a scammer.

Carry on.

Frank for president except one clarification. The gentleman in 1999 and the one who sold the cards on eBay in 2004 were two different gents.