Koufax/Brady private signings

Snowman · #1 02-17-2024, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Koufax was great, but he's really not in contention for a "The Greatest" argument. Sorry.

Never in my life have I ever heard or been part of a debate about who the greatest pitcher of all time was where Sandy Koufax was not at least discussed. And he's often the front-runner for a lot of people. As for Cy Young, I've never once heard anyone argue that he was the greatest.

Seven · #2 02-17-2024, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Never in my life have I ever heard or been part of a debate about who the greatest pitcher of all time was where Sandy Koufax was not at least discussed. And he's often the front-runner for a lot of people. As for Cy Young, I've never once heard anyone argue that he was the greatest.

Koufax's dominance at his peak was otherworldly. We only really saw something similar with Pedro's run in Boston 25 years ago. In terms of peaks it's hard to look past what Sandy did and not consider it one of the greatest. Longevity certainly wasn't on his side, but I don't think anyone could argue the talent.

packs · #3 02-19-2024, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seven

Koufax's dominance at his peak was otherworldly. We only really saw something similar with Pedro's run in Boston 25 years ago. In terms of peaks it's hard to look past what Sandy did and not consider it one of the greatest. Longevity certainly wasn't on his side, but I don't think anyone could argue the talent.

People always forget about Randy Johnson. I'd take Randy over Sandy every day of the week. Randy won 4 Cy Youngs in a row with over 300 K's in each season along with a Triple Crown at the absolute height of the steroid era.

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #4 02-18-2024, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Never in my life have I ever heard or been part of a debate about who the greatest pitcher of all time was where Sandy Koufax was not at least discussed. And he's often the front-runner for a lot of people. As for Cy Young, I've never once heard anyone argue that he was the greatest.

For me, longevity plays a significant role if you are going to call someone The Greatest. Yes, Koufax was incredible for that decade, but that's not enough for me. It can be enough for you, and we can both be content in our opinions. My comparison to Mike Bossy comes nicely into play again. He's often mentioned as "one of the greats", but never in the same "The Greatest" breath as Gretzky, Howe or Hull. At his prime, he was either just as good or better than any of those guys! And, like Sandy, his "prime" consisted of his entire career before both were tragically cut short by failing bodies.

I think the reason you don't hear Cy Young's name thrown into these conversations (anymore) can squarely be blamed on the passage of time. There's simply no one alive who saw him pitch at any point in his MLB career. True, the same can now pretty much be said about Cobb and Johnson, but we're still just bascailly a generation or two removed from those who saw that era of ball. Heck, I'm just in early middle age, and I had friends who played both with and against Cobb and Johnson. So, while both men have been dead for a very long time, first-hand memories of them as players (rather than as older gentlemen) are still living on today in people like me, who heard them directly from these players' contemporaries. I don't think the same can be said about 19th century greats; therefore, we're just not hearing their names tossed into the ring when it's time for these debates.

Today, "The Greatest" argument really seems to start with the Cobb/Johnson era and ascend chronologically from there (yes, I'm including Honus and Matty in with this generation, as they seemed to straddle two). It's as if anybody who hit their peak in baseball generations prior to those guys didn't even exist for the purpose of these conversations. By the time Cobb and Johnson started, Cy was pushing 40. It didn't stop him from notching successive 20-game seasons, but that was nothing compared to past showings by him.

Most of Cy's numbers are monstrous and speak for themselves. When they went to name the award, it wasn't the Walter Johnson Award or the Christy Mathewson Award. That has to speak volumes, unless there is something more to the reason Cy's name is on the award of which I am not aware. In the late 1940's, there were still many men alive who saw Young pitch, and it was him for whom the award was named.

Hankphenom · #5 02-18-2024, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Most of Cy's numbers are monstrous and speak for themselves. When they went to name the award, it wasn't the Walter Johnson Award or the Christy Mathewson Award. That has to speak volumes, unless there is something more to the reason Cy's name is on the award of which I am not aware. In the late 1940's, there were still many men alive who saw Young pitch, and it was him for whom the award was named.

If I have the history of the award right, they named it after Young because he had put up such a great record in both leagues and at first there was only one award between the two leagues. Something like that. And many people think that when it broke into two awards, one for each league, they should have given them different names, like maybe after WaJo and Matty. It's always been instructive to me that, great as he was, two pitchers were elected in the first HOF vote, and neither were named Cy Young.

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #6 02-19-2024, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

If I have the history of the award right, they named it after Young because he had put up such a great record in both leagues and at first there was only one award between the two leagues. Something like that. And many people think that when it broke into two awards, one for each league, they should have given them different names, like maybe after WaJo and Matty. It's always been instructive to me that, great as he was, two pitchers were elected in the first HOF vote, and neither were named Cy Young.

Points taken. It had completely slipped my mind that the award was only given out to one pitcher initially. Had I stopped to consider this, the answer would have likely come to mind.

I think that there are two possible correct answers as to why your grandfather and Matty were elected before Cy. The reason is either what you're suggesting, or what I am suggesting that more recent players would be fresher on the minds of those voting. This is not said to diminish the others, as their greatness speaks for itself (not to mention that, as people, their characters were even more admirable).

None of this really matters to me, as all three rightly belong in of these types of discussions. I just feel it odd that Young wouldn't be discussed more, to the point that Travis had never heard his name mentioned as a contender. A five-time 30 game winner and 10 time 20 game winner, among his jaw-dropping litany of other accomplishments. 511 wins?! Now, there will never be another 300 win pitcher, and Cy nearly doubled that.

Hankphenom · #7 02-20-2024, 04:16 PM

[QUOTE=BillyCoxDodgers3B;2414130
None of this really matters to me, as all three rightly belong in of these types of discussions. I just feel it odd that Young wouldn't be discussed more, to the point that Travis had never heard his name mentioned as a contender. A five-time 30 game winner and 10 time 20 game winner, among his jaw-dropping litany of other accomplishments. 511 wins?! Now, there will never be another 300 win pitcher, and Cy nearly doubled that.[/QUOTE]
When I wrote my biography of WaJo 30 years ago, I included an appendix entitled "Was he the greatest?" I didn't go in for statistical comparisons so much as outline the major discussions and polls on that question over the years, concluding that according to those, Johnson was the overwhelming choice. But I also named thirteen pitchers, including Koufax and Young, for whom I thought a strong case could be made, using various metrics, for that honor. Today I would have added several more names to that list. In trying to explain, or perhaps I should say defend, my (slightly biased!) opinion that Walter Johnson was the greatest pitcher ever, I put it this way: if you have the ten top experts on baseball history and pose that question to them, I believe at least four or five would name Johnson and you'd have a smattering of other names, probably including at least one or two for Young. I really do think that's true. It's not a complete consensus, but pretty close, and in any case makes great grist for the discussion mill, as it is here. With Koufax, you have the short career and relatively small numbers to deal with. As for Young, if all or most of his numbers had been posted in the 20th century, he'd win hands down. Unfortunately for him, there are many pitchers from the 1880s and 1890s with gaudy numbers who not even the average baseball fan has ever heard of, so I think there is quite a bit of discounting of his big stats for that reason, justified or not. His thing was that he pitched a LOT over many years to post those numbers, but didn't have the strikeouts, shutouts, E.R.A., etc., to go along with them. And that's not meant to diminish what he accomplished in any way--he was put in the HOF in the 2nd election, for gosh sakes. It's just that, in the opinion of most back then, and now, he didn't quite clear the highest bar of all, for GOAT.

tha-rock · #8 02-25-2024, 04:14 PM

I agree with BillyCoxDodgers3B- Longevity must be part of the discussion when one is discussing the greatest. For me, the winner easily is Walter Johnson.
Not taking anything away from Koufax, but he was dominant for only 6 seasons. In those 6 seasons he was the undoubtedly best in the game, but that was only half of his 12-year career. He was backed by a great team and in 3 of those 6 seasons the Dodgers were in the World Series.

From 1910 through 1919-10 straight years- Johnson won 20 games or more games, two of those years winning 30 or more, and in 9 of those 10 years his ERA was under 2.0. The Senators were a pretty miserable team during those years ending the season with a winning record in only 4 of those 10 years. They never won a pennant during those years. Johnson's WAR stands at 152.4, second only to Cy Young. Johnson could also hit, cranking 24 career home runs mostly in the dead ball era and fashioning a .235 lifetime BA.

For those reasons, I think Walter Johnson was the best pitcher of All Time, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Bigdaddy · #9 02-26-2024, 08:14 PM

Saw these pearls posted on FB today from the recent Sandy signing:

Hankphenom · #10 02-27-2024, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Saw these pearls posted on FB today from the recent Sandy signing:

Beautiful! And I would rather have those than a new car.

todeen · #11 02-29-2024, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Saw these pearls posted on FB today from the recent Sandy signing:

someone on Twitter posted a Valenzuela that he sent to be signed.

Sent from my SM-G9900 using Tapatalk

tjisonline · #12 02-22-2024, 09:39 AM

100%

Quote:

Originally Posted by snowman

never in my life have i ever heard or been part of a debate about who the greatest pitcher of all time was where sandy koufax was not at least discussed. And he's often the front-runner for a lot of people. As for cy young, i've never once heard anyone argue that he was the greatest.

Hankphenom · #13 02-22-2024, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowman

Never in my life have I ever heard or been part of a debate about who the greatest pitcher of all time was where Sandy Koufax was not at least discussed. And he's often the front-runner for a lot of people. As for Cy Young, I've never once heard anyone argue that he was the greatest.

I would guess that, because of the award in both leagues, more people think Young was the GOAT than any other pitcher in history. As for Sandy, he will always be prominent in the discussion of the best five-year stretch by any pitcher, otherwise known as "peak dominance." However, 11 years and 165 wins just doesn't meet the bar for GOAT, just too short a run for that. I saw him pitch many times and never saw anyone better, but there are pitchers that had 15 or 17 really great seasons in their 20-year careers that must take precedence in this argument, IMHO.

packs · #14 02-22-2024, 01:53 PM

I do think people in Cy Young's time would have probably said he was the greatest. He was clearly revered in his time. He's referred to as the "Grand Old Man" on his Tom Barker game card, for example. Nobody had ever seen a Perfect Game before either.

He was a bridge between the old game and what we now know as modern baseball and he pitched equally well in both worlds. Somebody mentioned him not being in the 1936 HOF class. Well, that vote was split into two votes for players: a 19th century vote and a 20th century vote. Cy Young straddled both centuries and his votes were split between them. That's why he wasn't inducted. The next year they did away with the split century vote and he got in.

Hankphenom · #15 02-22-2024, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

I do think people in Cy Young's time would have probably said he was the greatest. He was clearly revered in his time. He's referred to as the "Grand Old Man" on his Tom Barker game card, for example. Nobody had ever seen a Perfect Game before either. He was a bridge between the old game and what we now know as modern baseball and he pitched equally well in both worlds. Somebody mentioned him not being in the 1936 HOF class. Well, that vote was split into two votes for players: a 19th century vote and a 20th century vote. Cy Young straddled both centuries and his votes were split between them. That's why he wasn't inducted. The next year they did away with the split century vote and he got in.

Young was, indeed, considered the greatest until Matty came along. I didn't know that about Young and the first HOF election--you'd think they would have realized the unfairness of a career splitting votes between the centuries and adjusted for that. Do we know how many total votes he got and where that would have put him if combined? I see where he's #1 in career WAR, and that's impressive considering the respect that stat has come to have recently. But he's also 61st in lifetime E.R.A. and down the list in both strikeouts and shutouts, so I'm not sure how the SABR guys regard him in a statistical light. It's so hard trying to compare across generations in any category, including pitching, so I'm satisfied with my list of 15 pitchers I honestly believe you can mount a truly serious case for as GOAT employing various metrics, and leave it at that. I will also tell you that, from my many years of research, the anecdotal opinion of those who played against Johnson is no less than overwhelming on this score.

packs · #16 02-23-2024, 08:15 AM

The first HOF vote was very complicated and confusing and the Wikipedia page's explanation is equally complicated and confusing. But essentially, it was almost impossible for Young to get inducted on that first ballot with him split between centuries and his votes being recorded in a very confusing way.

I don't know that you can look at strike out totals for him because of his era. But if you look at his WAR totals, he led the league six times, spent 14 seasons in the top five for the entire league, and he's still third all time today for all players.

He never got hurt either. It wasn't until he was 43 years old that his innings dipped below 200. I see him as a Dead Ball Nolan Ryan for his time. Not in the strike out sense, but in the durable freak sense.

Scott Garner · #17 02-24-2024, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

The first HOF vote was very complicated and confusing and the Wikipedia page's explanation is equally complicated and confusing. But essentially, it was almost impossible for Young to get inducted on that first ballot with him split between centuries and his votes being recorded in a very confusing way.

I don't know that you can look at strike out totals for him because of his era. But if you look at his WAR totals, he led the league six times, spent 14 seasons in the top five for the entire league, and he's still third all time today for all players.

He never got hurt either. It wasn't until he was 43 years old that his innings dipped below 200. I see him as a Dead Ball Nolan Ryan for his time. Not in the strike out sense, but in the durable freak sense.

Cy Young = Country Strong

rlevy · #18 02-24-2024, 03:13 PM

No question that Koufax was the GOHT (Greatest of his time).

Just back from the private signing is the line-up card from Game 4 of the 1963 World Series, signed by Sandy. At 88, still a very nice signature. According ot the guy supervising the signing, he spent about 5 minutes looking at this item, as it apparently brought back some memories. I would have loved to have been there to ask him his thoughts.

Rick

dodgers signed by Koufax reduced by 50 and 50.jpg

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