Koufax/Brady private signings

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Most of Cy's numbers are monstrous and speak for themselves. When they went to name the award, it wasn't the Walter Johnson Award or the Christy Mathewson Award. That has to speak volumes, unless there is something more to the reason Cy's name is on the award of which I am not aware. In the late 1940's, there were still many men alive who saw Young pitch, and it was him for whom the award was named.

If I have the history of the award right, they named it after Young because he had put up such a great record in both leagues and at first there was only one award between the two leagues. Something like that. And many people think that when it broke into two awards, one for each league, they should have given them different names, like maybe after WaJo and Matty. It's always been instructive to me that, great as he was, two pitchers were elected in the first HOF vote, and neither were named Cy Young.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

If I have the history of the award right, they named it after Young because he had put up such a great record in both leagues and at first there was only one award between the two leagues. Something like that. And many people think that when it broke into two awards, one for each league, they should have given them different names, like maybe after WaJo and Matty. It's always been instructive to me that, great as he was, two pitchers were elected in the first HOF vote, and neither were named Cy Young.

Points taken. It had completely slipped my mind that the award was only given out to one pitcher initially. Had I stopped to consider this, the answer would have likely come to mind.

I think that there are two possible correct answers as to why your grandfather and Matty were elected before Cy. The reason is either what you're suggesting, or what I am suggesting that more recent players would be fresher on the minds of those voting. This is not said to diminish the others, as their greatness speaks for itself (not to mention that, as people, their characters were even more admirable).

None of this really matters to me, as all three rightly belong in of these types of discussions. I just feel it odd that Young wouldn't be discussed more, to the point that Travis had never heard his name mentioned as a contender. A five-time 30 game winner and 10 time 20 game winner, among his jaw-dropping litany of other accomplishments. 511 wins?! Now, there will never be another 300 win pitcher, and Cy nearly doubled that.

[Hankphenom]

[QUOTE=BillyCoxDodgers3B;2414130
None of this really matters to me, as all three rightly belong in of these types of discussions. I just feel it odd that Young wouldn't be discussed more, to the point that Travis had never heard his name mentioned as a contender. A five-time 30 game winner and 10 time 20 game winner, among his jaw-dropping litany of other accomplishments. 511 wins?! Now, there will never be another 300 win pitcher, and Cy nearly doubled that.[/QUOTE]
When I wrote my biography of WaJo 30 years ago, I included an appendix entitled "Was he the greatest?" I didn't go in for statistical comparisons so much as outline the major discussions and polls on that question over the years, concluding that according to those, Johnson was the overwhelming choice. But I also named thirteen pitchers, including Koufax and Young, for whom I thought a strong case could be made, using various metrics, for that honor. Today I would have added several more names to that list. In trying to explain, or perhaps I should say defend, my (slightly biased!) opinion that Walter Johnson was the greatest pitcher ever, I put it this way: if you have the ten top experts on baseball history and pose that question to them, I believe at least four or five would name Johnson and you'd have a smattering of other names, probably including at least one or two for Young. I really do think that's true. It's not a complete consensus, but pretty close, and in any case makes great grist for the discussion mill, as it is here. With Koufax, you have the short career and relatively small numbers to deal with. As for Young, if all or most of his numbers had been posted in the 20th century, he'd win hands down. Unfortunately for him, there are many pitchers from the 1880s and 1890s with gaudy numbers who not even the average baseball fan has ever heard of, so I think there is quite a bit of discounting of his big stats for that reason, justified or not. His thing was that he pitched a LOT over many years to post those numbers, but didn't have the strikeouts, shutouts, E.R.A., etc., to go along with them. And that's not meant to diminish what he accomplished in any way--he was put in the HOF in the 2nd election, for gosh sakes. It's just that, in the opinion of most back then, and now, he didn't quite clear the highest bar of all, for GOAT.

[tha-rock]

I agree with BillyCoxDodgers3B- Longevity must be part of the discussion when one is discussing the greatest. For me, the winner easily is Walter Johnson.
Not taking anything away from Koufax, but he was dominant for only 6 seasons. In those 6 seasons he was the undoubtedly best in the game, but that was only half of his 12-year career. He was backed by a great team and in 3 of those 6 seasons the Dodgers were in the World Series.

From 1910 through 1919-10 straight years- Johnson won 20 games or more games, two of those years winning 30 or more, and in 9 of those 10 years his ERA was under 2.0. The Senators were a pretty miserable team during those years ending the season with a winning record in only 4 of those 10 years. They never won a pennant during those years. Johnson's WAR stands at 152.4, second only to Cy Young. Johnson could also hit, cranking 24 career home runs mostly in the dead ball era and fashioning a .235 lifetime BA.

For those reasons, I think Walter Johnson was the best pitcher of All Time, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[Bigdaddy]

Saw these pearls posted on FB today from the recent Sandy signing:

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Saw these pearls posted on FB today from the recent Sandy signing:

Beautiful! And I would rather have those than a new car.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Beautiful! And I would rather have those than a new car.

I might take the car just because I’ve got more than 100,000 miles on mine, but those are great.

I would love to get Koufax, being an SI collector.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Saw these pearls posted on FB today from the recent Sandy signing:

someone on Twitter posted a Valenzuela that he sent to be signed.

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[Swadewade51]

Originally Posted by todeen

someone on Twitter posted a Valenzuela that he sent to be signed.

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Koufax signed a Fernando Valenzuela card? I believe you mean the Venezuela Retirado

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[todeen]

Originally Posted by Swadewade51

Koufax signed a Fernando Valenzuela card? I believe you mean the Venezuela Retirado

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yes, oops! thanks for that correction!

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[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by todeen

someone on Twitter posted a Valenzuela that he sent to be signed.

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He's getting older, so it's possible. I'm going to send him a Jerry Reuss and see if he'll inscribe it "1980 All-Star."