Final UPDATE. PSA Guarantee on a doctored card - Actual good news this time

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Beercan collector

Is the PSA certification number still 28639479 ?
I cannot get it to come up on PSA but 28639478 does and all I’m gonna say about that card is it’s interesting

Good catch. Hadn't checked that. The cert is still in my sets as 28639479. Yet when I click on the button to verify the cert, it gives me an error message.

I just sent a follow-up email to inquire about this, particularly because he asserted that it hasn't been decertified.

[G1911]

If they claim it’s not altered and there’s not evidence it is (a lie) so they don’t have to honor the guarantee, what possible grounds are there to invalidate the cert?

[ncinin]

Originally Posted by raulus

Good catch. Hadn't checked that. The cert is still in my sets as 28639479. Yet when I click on the button to verify the cert, it gives me an error message.

I just sent a follow-up email to inquire about this, particularly because he asserted that it hasn't been decertified.

If I am not mistaken the PSA 8 T206 Wagner or a card like that was once reviewed by PSA and after the grade was confirmed the cert # was invalid for a few days. It seemed as if the cert # was withdrawn during the review but there was a time lapse after grade confirmation until the cert # was reactivated.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by ncinin

If I am not mistaken the PSA 8 T206 Wagner or a card like that was once reviewed by PSA and after the grade was confirmed the cert # was invalid for a few days. It seemed as if the cert # was withdrawn during the review but there was a time lapse after grade confirmation until the cert # was reactivated.

During most card reviews, they deactivate the cert and re-establish once it gets completed. So they may still be closing out the review and the cert will pop up.

Specifically to that PSA 8 Honus Wagner (of which there is only 1: #00000001), PSA claimed that it was not being reviewed, just that there was a glitch or outage on their site for that specific card.

[Snowman]

I'm going to start making Tiffany stickers and putting them on my slabs. Then in my listing descriptions, I'll proudly disclose, "as seen in the Tiffany card database!"

I bet they'll even sell for a premium. If anyone else wants a sticker, let me know.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'm going to start making Tiffany stickers and putting them on my slabs. Then in my listing descriptions, I'll proudly disclose, "as seen in the Tiffany card database!"

I bet they'll even sell for a premium. If anyone else wants a sticker, let me know.

How many do you have? Outed slabs, I mean, not stickers.

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[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Gorditadogg

How many do you have? Outed slabs, I mean, not stickers.

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Currently, I don't have any. I plan on adding as many as I can find though. It'll be fun! I might even send her some before and after pictures myself to gain entry into her prestigious "database". Maybe we can get PSA to create the Tiffany Cards registry?

[Snowman]

PSA does not have a guarantee. They just have a marketing department that wants you to think they have one so they can justify their absurd upcharges.

People in this hobby still haven't even begun to understand the scale of this. Even if PSA were only forced to make good on a mere 1% of altered cards, it would still bankrupt them. Hell, even 0.1% would bankrupt them.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I'm going to start making Tiffany stickers and putting them on my slabs. Then in my listing descriptions, I'll proudly disclose, "as seen in the Tiffany card database!"

I bet they'll even sell for a premium. If anyone else wants a sticker, let me know.

I’ll take that bet that they won’t sell for a premium! I don’t think collectors will want to pay a premium for cards that have been suspected of being altered, soaked in an unknown chemical or tap water, mislabeled, stolen, or suspected of being doctored. However, I do believe that everyone would appreciate the disclosure on cards before they buy them.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by TiffanyCards

I’ll take that bet that they won’t sell for a premium! I don’t think collectors will want to pay a premium for cards that have been suspected of being altered, soaked in an unknown chemical or tap water, mislabeled, stolen, or suspected of being doctored. However, I do believe that everyone would appreciate the disclosure on cards before they buy them.

First, let's be clear. I don't alter cards. I use distilled water. I don't know what's in Kurt's card spray, but I don't use that or "unknown chemicals" to soak my cards.

Do I have your permission to use your logo to make some little stickers that I can apply to some slabs? Similar to the PWCC stickers. Should be a fun experiment. You can add them to your spreadsheet. I'll even send you the before vs after scans myself to save you some time.

[Exhibitman]

The guarantee is BS. Bill Mastro admitted in court that he trimmed the PSA 8 Wagner and went to jail for it, yet it is the crown jewel in the PSA crown. If that doesn't get a card de-certified, nothing will. When it was public, PSA had to disclose its reserves for bad grades and the numbers were laughably low as compared to the potential liability for just the one card. And it is so, so unbiased to have the person accused of missing the grade also be the one who reviews the work. Yeah, I wish I could get that deal for my work.

The thing PSA counts on is that challenging its decision requires a lawsuit and most cards are not worth paying a lawyer to fight over. Plus, if you were to sue, you'd need to present either eyewitness testimony from the card doctor or expert testimony to debunk PSA's opinion. As to the former, good luck with that. Mastro admitted what he'd done as part of an allocution designed to get him less time in the can. Otherwise, he'd never have said a word. As to the latter, you end up having what lawyers call a 'whore fight" between experts and the only certainty of that is expenses.

The more interesting question, unfortunately, is what to do, assuming that the card no longer is desired. PSA says the card is good. Do you accept that decision and sell it as is? Sell it with a recitation of what happened? Not sell it? I don't know the answer, fortunately.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

First, let's be clear. I don't alter cards. I use distilled water. I don't know what's in Kurt's card spray, but I don't use that or "unknown chemicals" to soak my cards.

Do I have your permission to use your logo to make some little stickers that I can apply to some slabs? Similar to the PWCC stickers. Should be a fun experiment. You can add them to your spreadsheet. I'll even send you the before vs after scans myself to save you some time.

You need to buy this 1954 Topps Mays PSA 8.5 and put your sticker on it. Like they say go big or go home. PSA had the Wagner and you could have the Mays.

[TiffanyCards]

Originally Posted by Snowman

First, let's be clear. I don't alter cards. I use distilled water. I don't know what's in Kurt's card spray, but I don't use that or "unknown chemicals" to soak my cards.

Do I have your permission to use your logo to make some little stickers that I can apply to some slabs? Similar to the PWCC stickers. Should be a fun experiment. You can add them to your spreadsheet. I'll even send you the before vs after scans myself to save you some time.

Just to be clear, your Instagram is jackies_and_jordans?

Is removing stains altering cards?


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[raulus]

Originally Posted by swarmee

During most card reviews, they deactivate the cert and re-establish once it gets completed. So they may still be closing out the review and the cert will pop up.

Specifically to that PSA 8 Honus Wagner (of which there is only 1: #00000001), PSA claimed that it was not being reviewed, just that there was a glitch or outage on their site for that specific card.

Response from PSA on this score:

Not to worry, any card that is at our facility is placed "on hold". You won't be able to see the cert in our database until it has shipped out, (we should be shipping your order today).

[JustinD]

I think (and it has seemingly been proven) that PSA has no plans at all to honor their guarantee with this scandal in any situation. The fear of the dominoes that would fall if they even capitulate to a single claim on this would essentially bankrupt them as the submissions pile in.

Even with a preponderance of evidence they will cover their eyes like a three-year old and yell "No! I don't see it!". Pretty sure they would argue the sky is green at this point if it helps move this to the background.

It's a sad situation and I feel for the innocent buyers with millions wrapped up in this issue, which is essentially a middle man situation to a fraud for profit ring. There is no logical path of recourse for the end buyer left holding the bag. You are either forced to hold a card you don't feel good about as it is tainted, Destroy it and lose thousands, or pass it on and live with the guilt. Not a great corner to be stuck in.

This is the perfect storm of events to show these card doctors what they have done and absolutely prevents me from spending any large amounts on high condition cards ever again.

I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV, is it possible to sue both Moser for knowingly committing fraud and PSA for not honoring the basic tenets of their "guarantee" when faced with a mountain of evidence? Seems the photos would be interesting to a jury.

Also, do you have a microscope and high res photo of the scratch repair on Mays? If that is a smoothing and recolor, it would be interesting to see.