Memory Lane sold cards they didn't have per SCD

[Lucas00]

They shipped them to the hotel? It's like asking for them to be stolen... Is that seriously something dealers at shows do? If so I would STOP doing that asap.

Drive them in a car, or armored truck if that's your thing. But don't ship them to a hotel your staying at that is going to be a mecca for expensive cards. Come on now.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

They shipped them to the hotel? It's like asking for them to be stolen... Is that seriously something dealers at shows do? If so I would STOP doing that asap.

Drive them in a car, or armored truck if that's your thing. But don't ship them to a hotel your staying at that is going to be a mecca for expensive cards. Come on now.

Here's an insane thought . . . .hire a bonded security guy and put him on an airplane and throw in two nights at the Best Western . . . one rule . . . must take cards on the plane and never leave them from your sight. That means they don't go into checked baggage and don't even go in the overhead compartment. Just keep them in your eyesight until the moment you hand us the bag.

Nah, fk it, just mail them to the Best Western and hope for the, uh, best.

[ALBB]

Best Western, they are OK,.. breakfast included, free Wi FI,

[BRoberts]

Perhaps Scott Russell of The Collector Connection can post about the legalities of an auction house selling items it knows it doesn't have in its possession. Scott has said he graduated from auction school, and I bet that topic was covered.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BRoberts

Perhaps Scott Russell of The Collector Connection can post about the legalities of an auction house selling items it knows it doesn't have in its possession. Scott has said he graduated from auction school, and I bet that topic was covered.

I am about as certain as I can be that ML would've consulted with counsel before making the decision they did. I don't remember ever discussing auctioning of things that have been stolen prior to completion of the auction. It's a pretty unique scenario.

A related concept that is covered and is legal is that there are a surprising number of auction companies (not necessarily sports) that auction items they don't have possession of. Whether they're allowing a consignor hold the item until they approve of the sale and in some cases even allowing them to ship it on to the final destination on behalf of the auction company. We are advised against the practice in school for a number of pretty obvious reasons. I've had consignors try and make these arrangements with me, we turn down the consignments. Amazingly though, it is not actually illegal (really isn't that in essence what an ebay auction is?)

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Amazingly though, it is not actually illegal (really isn't that in essence what an ebay auction is?)

Is it legal to list things on ebay one doesn't have? I'm sure it's against their rules.

I'm going to a flea market this weekend and I'm "optimistic" I'll soon have a green Cobb available. Can I list it on ebay now?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Is it legal to list things on ebay one doesn't have? I'm sure it's against their rules.

I'm going to a flea market this weekend and I'm "optimistic" I'll soon have a green Cobb available. Can I list it on ebay now?

I really doubt it is against any rules as a there are a ton of eBay sellers who don't own anything they have listed for sale.

[Gorditadogg]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I am about as certain as I can be that ML would've consulted with counsel before making the decision they did. I don't remember ever discussing auctioning of things that have been stolen prior to completion of the auction. It's a pretty unique scenario.

A related concept that is covered and is legal is that there are a surprising number of auction companies (not necessarily sports) that auction items they don't have possession of. Whether they're allowing a consignor hold the item until they approve of the sale and in some cases even allowing them to ship it on to the final destination on behalf of the auction company. We are advised against the practice in school for a number of pretty obvious reasons. I've had consignors try and make these arrangements with me, we turn down the consignments. Amazingly though, it is not actually illegal (really isn't that in essence what an ebay auction is?)

Thanks, Scott. Appreciate your perspective.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I am about as certain as I can be that ML would've consulted with counsel before making the decision they did. I don't remember ever discussing auctioning of things that have been stolen prior to completion of the auction. It's a pretty unique scenario.

A related concept that is covered and is legal is that there are a surprising number of auction companies (not necessarily sports) that auction items they don't have possession of. Whether they're allowing a consignor hold the item until they approve of the sale and in some cases even allowing them to ship it on to the final destination on behalf of the auction company. We are advised against the practice in school for a number of pretty obvious reasons. I've had consignors try and make these arrangements with me, we turn down the consignments. Amazingly though, it is not actually illegal (really isn't that in essence what an ebay auction is?)

Scott, appreciate your insight. Since you are the only AH to comment on this thread, what would you have done if consignments in an upcoming auction were stolen?

[Powell]

I believe Memory Lane had and has a good faith need the cards would be recovered. It is making consignors whole. I cut ML slack here.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Scott, appreciate your insight. Since you are the only AH to comment on this thread, what would you have done if consignments in an upcoming auction were stolen?

I do want to avoid making comments that seem critical of other companies, ESPECIALLY not knowing all the details.

I can say that I have always personally traveled with consignments that are going to shows. Of course in my case that is, to date, larger amounts of lower value items than the ones in question. I've brought maybe half a million in consignments to the National, but it was a helluva lot more than 50 cards!

Of course just because I am with the items doesn't mean they couldn't be stolen, but most of what we sell has pretty easily established value unlike many of the items in the ML situation. So I doubt we'd "need" to let them continue at auction to come up with an accurate settlement. Even so I would obviously comply with whatever path my insurance company wanted me to take.

My preference would be to pull the items but if my insurance company (or lawyer or law enforcement) requested I do otherwise, I imagine I would do what ML is doing.

Our travel/transport rider is 600k I am sure ML's is significantly higher. When insurance companies have to start paying on bigger claims they call a lot of the shots. They are likely also involved in the investigation of the crime. They'd rather it be solved and resolved than paid.

There are no winners in a situation like this and I'm sure ML is trying prevent as many people as possible from feeling like they're on the losing end.

I don't personally know anyone at ML so anything I say is conjecture and shouldn't be taken as me having inside information.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Scott, appreciate your insight. Since you are the only AH to comment on this thread, what would you have done if consignments in an upcoming auction were stolen?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that Scott wouldn't have shipped 2 million dollars worth of cards to a Best Western via FedEx to be held for 3 days prior to arriving there.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Here's an insane thought . . . .hire a bonded security guy and put him on an airplane and throw in two nights at the Best Western . . . one rule . . . must take cards on the plane and never leave them from your sight. That means they don't go into checked baggage and don't even go in the overhead compartment. Just keep them in your eyesight until the moment you hand us the bag.

This was my second thought after realizing that running the auction in silence was the best move to establish value for items that perhaps have aged comps or none at all.

It certainly seems like there has to already exist bonded receipt/delivery companies in all 50 states for high value shipments, collectables, art, etc. Just shipping to a contractor in Ohio and giving them a short drive vs. direct delivering 2 million in items to a business front that has likely 70% of in-house employees on minimum wage or close to it seems dangerously risky.

If this is not the case, I may have just come up with a business idea.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by JustinD

This was my second thought after realizing that running the auction in silence was the best move to establish value for items that perhaps have aged comps or none at all.

It certainly seems like there has to already exist bonded receipt/delivery companies in all 50 states for high value shipments, collectables, art, etc. Just shipping to a contractor in Ohio and giving them a short drive vs. direct delivering 2 million in items to a business front that has likely 70% of in-house employees on minimum wage or close to it seems dangerously risky.

If this is not the case, I may have just come up with a business idea.

While definitely risky, shipping via FedEx or some similar shipper while having your own insurance in case of problems is presumably the cheapest way to do it and has likely been done that way for a long time (as indicated in the SCD article). Most companies these days will usually try to do things as cheaply as possible until there's a problem. Then they will reassess if it's worth spending more to do it differently.

[ThomasL]

Ok Here is what I dont get...(but I guess lawyers advised them not to do this for some reason?)

They know about the theft before the auction starts correct?

Then why not cancel the auction until the items are recovered and then have the same auction at a later date?

Also until the cosigners are paid out I would not be signing anyone's praises either...they can say they will do a lot of things but until the money is in hand they haven't done anything.

If we are talking about hypotheticals...Image a cosigner who has to sell his loved collection to pay for medical treatments right now...but now their payout could possible take years of litigation...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Ok Here is what I dont get...(but I guess lawyers advised them not to do this for some reason?)

They know about the theft before the auction starts correct?

Then why not cancel the auction until the items are recovered and then have the same auction at a later date?

Also until the cosigners are paid out I would not be signing anyone's praises either...they can say they will do a lot of things but until the money is in hand they haven't done anything.

If we are talking about hypotheticals...Image a cosigner who has to sell his loved collection to pay for medical treatments right now...but now their payout could possible take years of litigation...

Auction opened April 11. Isn't the theft after that?

[ThomasL]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Auction opened April 11. Isn't the theft after that?

Maybe I misread the article then...that makes it a little less the obvious thing to do but still I think that would have been the best course of action.


Addendum:
Also...all the items already had a market value, and values for insurance purposes already I would assume (in case they would have been lost in the mail or a fire at the warehouse/auction house)...so logically running the auction to establish a value for insurance purposes is unnecessary ... isnt it?

IMO the best course of action would have been to close the auction once they knew of the theft, informed all cosigners of it asap and offer to return the items not stolen if they wanted them back at no cost or offer to hold them over for the next auction with zero fees taken in by ML for the consignment.
The cosigners who had items stolen would be in limbo, which they are anyway, but at least would be in the loop from the start that their items were stolen and could get updates on the case. ML could offer to pay the full market value up front or after a period of time if the cards are not recovered (giving the option to wait to see if the cards will be recovered)

If they werent recovered within the first 2 weeks I seriously doubt they will be recovered at all or at least any time soon...I hope I am wrong

Likely scenarios are these in no particular order:

1. Robber knew ahead of time what the package was and had already fenced the items before stealing them...thus the robber doesnt have them and they are absorbed into a shady collectors collection not to be seen until their death or some day long after the statute of limitations.

2. Robber quickly found out how impossible it would be for them to sell or get rid of the items bc they were easily identifiable...this leads to two options
2a. Robber sits on the items for a long time, possibility of them never resurfacing, or selling at an auction house10+ years down the road when people have forgotten about the theft (much like library collections have been stolen from and sold years later at some major auction houses) 2b. Robber trashes them to get rid of the evidence...destroyed never to be seen again and always a mystery what happened to them.

None the less...If they werent recovered quickly I seriously doubt they will be...if it was some idiot who did it they would have already showed up on ebay

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ThomasL

Ok Here is what I dont get...(but I guess lawyers advised them not to do this for some reason?)

They know about the theft before the auction starts correct?

Then why not cancel the auction until the items are recovered and then have the same auction at a later date?

Also until the cosigners are paid out I would not be signing anyone's praises either...they can say they will do a lot of things but until the money is in hand they haven't done anything.

If we are talking about hypotheticals...Image a cosigner who has to sell his loved collection to pay for medical treatments right now...but now their payout could possible take years of litigation...

How often do we discuss items that were auctioned, then appear back at auction soon after? And how often are the questions then "what's wrong with it" and "what sort of bidding shenanigans went on that it's being offered again so soon"

[savedfrommyspokes]

Originally Posted by Lucas00

They shipped them to the hotel? It's like asking for them to be stolen... Is that seriously something dealers at shows do? If so I would STOP doing that asap.

Drive them in a car, or armored truck if that's your thing. But don't ship them to a hotel your staying at that is going to be a mecca for expensive cards. Come on now.

Or just pick them up from the Fedex location near the airport on your way to the BW?

Not understanding the logic to send this shipment to the BW opposed to picking up at the Fedex location. At least if someone at Fedex pilfers the cards, the collectibles insurance would cover.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by savedfrommyspokes

Or just pick them up from the Fedex location near the airport on your way to the BW?

Not understanding the logic to send this shipment to the BW opposed to picking up at the Fedex location. At least if someone at Fedex pilfers the cards, the collectibles insurance would cover.

From the SCD article, ML is not the only one to do something like this:

"If it’s impractical to drive to a remote location for a show or other event, dealers often ship items ahead of time, tracking shipments and making arrangements to take delivery. One former auction house owner told us Monday that while the process can be nerve wracking, problems are rare."

Also, I would think that ML would have insurance to cover themselves for this type of occurrence. I doubt they would risk sending several million dollars worth of cards in a way that wasn't covered.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by jayshum

From the SCD article, ML is not the only one to do something like this:

"If it’s impractical to drive to a remote location for a show or other event, dealers often ship items ahead of time, tracking shipments and making arrangements to take delivery. One former auction house owner told us Monday that while the process can be nerve wracking, problems are rare."

Perhaps this would be fine if it were a box of 50 of my craptastic cards with a total worth in the very low 4 digit range. Just because shipping in this fashion has been a common practice doesn't mean it makes sense with such a valuable 7 digit box shipment. Memory Lane shouldn't get off with a "oh well, shit happens" pat on the back. They handled this shipment with little foresight, not much more than if it were flowers sent to the mother-in-law for her birthday.

And how honorable is it to let the stolen card lots continue as if the cards were still legitimately being auctioned? At some point before the auction end these lots should have been closed when they hadn't been recovered. As others have mentioned value could have been determined by other methods rather than an integrity challenged phantom auction.

Perhaps out of my financial collecting universe, but I think a common sense perspective...my 2 cents from a guy who owns multiple cards worth 2 cents.


brianp(arker)-beme

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

Perhaps this would be fine if it were a box of 50 of my craptastic cards with a total worth in the very low 4 digit range. Just because shipping in this fashion has been a common practice doesn't mean it makes sense with such a valuable 7 digit box shipment. Memory Lane shouldn't get off with a "oh well, shit happens" pat on the back. They handled this shipment with little foresight, not much more than if it were flowers sent to the mother-in-law for her birthday.

And how honorable is it to let the stolen card lots continue as if the cards were still legitimately being auctioned? At some point before the auction end these lots should have been closed when they hadn't been recovered. As others have mentioned value could have been determined by other methods rather than an integrity challenged phantom auction.

Perhaps out of my financial collecting universe, but I think a common sense perspective...my 2 cents from a guy who owns multiple cards worth 2 cents.


brianp(arker)-beme

I was just pointing out that what ML did was apparently not uncommon according to someone who used to have an auction house. No indication about whether that was true for cards this valuable. Personally, I was shocked to read that an auction house would be shipping that much value in the way described, but if it was cheaper and had always worked before without any problems, I'm not surprised they would keep doing it.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I was just pointing out that what ML did was apparently not uncommon according to someone who used to have an auction house. No indication about whether that was true for cards this valuable. Personally, I was shocked to read that an auction house would be shipping that much value in the way described, but if it was cheaper and had always worked before without any problems, I'm not surprised they would keep doing it.

Sorry, I was utilizing your quote of the Sports Collector's Daily article instead of quoting it from the Sports Collector's Daily directly, pretty much out of laziness, and not questioning your viewpoint, which seemed fairly obvious to me. And I can understand why this shipment would happen, because that was how it was handled in the past, just questioning the lack of foresight with such an incredibly large value shipment.

But then again, this parallels how most practices only get changed after something catastrophic occurs. As I learned last semester in my Human Nature 101 class.

brianp(arker)-beme

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by jayshum

I was just pointing out that what ML did was apparently not uncommon according to someone who used to have an auction house. No indication about whether that was true for cards this valuable. Personally, I was shocked to read that an auction house would be shipping that much value in the way described, but if it was cheaper and had always worked before without any problems, I'm not surprised they would keep doing it.

Other auction houses use armored trucks to deliver $2 million dollar packages. Probstein regularly posts videos of him getting these on social media. Why would they go through the added inconvenience and expense of using an armored truck if they could have simply just shipped it via FedEx and saved a lot of money?

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Other auction houses use armored trucks to deliver $2 million dollar packages. Probstein regularly posts videos of him getting these on social media. Why would they go through the added inconvenience and expense of using an armored truck if they could have simply just shipped it via FedEx and saved a lot of money?

Just maybe Probstein is putting on a dog and pony show...for social media to...show everyone how awesome he is. VOMIT. Anyway, as I posted above, the insurance policy will dictate the method the insured is required to use based on the value of what is being shipped.

And it is 50 fucking cards. Carry them on the plane with you.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Other auction houses use armored trucks to deliver $2 million dollar packages. Probstein regularly posts videos of him getting these on social media. Why would they go through the added inconvenience and expense of using an armored truck if they could have simply just shipped it via FedEx and saved a lot of money?

That "show" has value.

The same reason Mr Mint had a briefcase full of cash and put all that cash in a display case. Not every show, but at one I helped at. The promoters table I worked was right near him, and it was interesting watching him work. More circus than anyone else I ever saw, but he bought a lot of stuff.
Not a style I would or maybe even could emulate. But it worked very well for him.

[FrankWakefield]

First, once the auction house no longer has the item, they need to immediately STOP accepting bids and STOP trying to sell it. Existing bids should be voided. Update the listing with NO LONGER AVAILABLE AT THIS TIME, and mention on the front page of the auction exactly what has happened. To continue to try to sell something they don't have is misleading.

Next, communicate directly with each of the consignors of the items that aren't available about what has occurred; and with their insurance company, immediately.

Keep law enforcement, the insurance folks, and the consignors, informed of updates as they are available.

Again, you can't sell something you don't have, and it's wrong to go through the steps involved with the auction when the item is gone.

And finally, contemplate about what happened, how it happened, and what changes can be done to minimize it happening again; then implement those changes.

[docpatlv]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards
I think a much bigger detriment would've been the mysterious removal of $2m of the best cards. Can you imagine, as a bidder, continuing to bid in an auction where that happened?

If you’re replying to me, of course I can…I would, as long as the cards I wanted were still available. What percentage of bidders do you think are bidding on $25-50k cards? I would think it’s small.

M.ike P.ugeda

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

First, once the auction house no longer has the item, they need to immediately STOP accepting bids and STOP trying to sell it. Existing bids should be voided. Update the listing with NO LONGER AVAILABLE AT THIS TIME, and mention on the front page of the auction exactly what has happened. To continue to try to sell something they don't have is misleading.

Next, communicate directly with each of the consignors of the items that aren't available about what has occurred; and with their insurance company, immediately.

Keep law enforcement, the insurance folks, and the consignors, informed of updates as they are available.

Again, you can't sell something you don't have, and it's wrong to go through the steps involved with the auction when the item is gone.

And finally, contemplate about what happened, how it happened, and what changes can be done to minimize it happening again; then implement those changes.

Stop making so much sence. I was actually at the counter when the detectives were questioning the guy about the "Lost Package" & "reviewing Video". I never realized this was what they were discussing. I should have been more assertive, listened in more attentively and asked questions.

EVERYONE was able to keep this a SECRET for 2-3 Weeks. That was really helpful. That's a crime or at least a crying shame in itself. You know I woulda been flapping my gums. What was the big secret? So they could pull off the fake auction? For insurance? For Law Enforcement, for the cosigners. Lets do it for "Duty & Humanity". That's Lame AF, IMHO.

We would like a list of all the cards that were involved right now

[oldjudge]

Why aren't the images of the cards posted? That would limit the options of the thief,

[Seven]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Why aren't the images of the cards posted? That would limit the options of the thief,

My only guess is because the investigation is still ongoing? But I truly don't have much of a clue either. Maybe someone can shed light on the situation.

[GaryPassamonte]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

First, once the auction house no longer has the item, they need to immediately STOP accepting bids and STOP trying to sell it. Existing bids should be voided. Update the listing with NO LONGER AVAILABLE AT THIS TIME, and mention on the front page of the auction exactly what has happened. To continue to try to sell something they don't have is misleading.

Next, communicate directly with each of the consignors of the items that aren't available about what has occurred; and with their insurance company, immediately.

Keep law enforcement, the insurance folks, and the consignors, informed of updates as they are available.

Again, you can't sell something you don't have, and it's wrong to go through the steps involved with the auction when the item is gone.

And finally, contemplate about what happened, how it happened, and what changes can be done to minimize it happening again; then implement those changes.

+1