Memory Lane sold cards they didn't have per SCD

Aquarian Sports Cards · #1 05-14-2024, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

I think few, if any, people would've had an issue with that.

Nobody would say, "Wait! They should've deceived all their bidders so they could see what people would've been willing to pay, for purposes of filing their insurance claim."

As a consignor, even if I didn't have one of the 54 stolen lots, I'd be pissed. It would leave a massive negative impression on the entire auction. I've said it before I think pulling that many key lots actually HURTS the remaining lots.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 05-14-2024, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

As a consignor, even if I didn't have one of the 54 stolen lots, I'd be pissed. It would leave a massive negative impression on the entire auction. I've said it before I think pulling that many key lots actually HURTS the remaining lots.

Either continue the auction or end the whole thing. Just pulling the stolen lots would have been a terrible idea.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #3 05-14-2024, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Either continue the auction or end the whole thing. Just pulling the stolen lots would have been a terrible idea.

I agree.

I honestly don't know what I would've done in a similar situation. It's just not as black and white as people want it to be.

Kidnapped18 · #4 05-14-2024, 02:03 PM

A few observations
- Memory Lane (possibly other AH's) needs to take into consideration some points good and bad that have been made in these posts
- ML I believe was in a Catch 22 as evidenced by some that agree with what they did and some that are calling the auction fraudulent
- I tend to think if I was in the position ML was in I would at the very least notify the bidders of the stolen items halted bidding and/or pulled the items but I'm not and I don't know everything the ML higher ups know so this is just an observation from the outside
- Notification and pulling the cards would have at least allow bidders to go after some other items with their available funds and when the cards are located then they can be put up for auction when in ML hands
- While I don't agree that they kept the auction going for the stolen items without any notification to the bidders I plan to place bids with them in the future if they have items I am interested in
- I was a bidder and winner in this last auction and I don't feel like ML committed fraud on me but my items were not some of the stolen property at least that I know of...

Glad we have this forum where we can agree, disagree and discuss collecting baseball cards!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I agree.

I honestly don't know what I would've done in a similar situation. It's just not as black and white as people want it to be.

Republicaninmass · #5 05-14-2024, 03:43 PM

Good news is

MEMORY LANE IS ACCEPTING SUMMER CONSIGNMENTS!!

Anyone know their shipping address for Fed ex??

Wha (sic) too soon?

japhi · #6 05-14-2024, 03:58 PM

Just drop your collection off at the local BW and they will arrange pick up in 3 days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Good news is

MEMORY LANE IS ACCEPTING SUMMER CONSIGNMENTS!!

Anyone know their shipping address for Fed ex??

Wha (sic) too soon?

JollyElm · #7 05-14-2024, 04:16 PM

I don't want to be talking out of school, but my friend is a Realtor in Texas and she just got a new client...who coincidentally enough is a chambermaid at a certain Best Western Plus hotel. Her current residence is the top picture, but just made an all cash offer on the bottom property. Hmmm...

housemansionauctioncardstheft.jpg

Mark17 · #8 05-14-2024, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

As a consignor, even if I didn't have one of the 54 stolen lots, I'd be pissed. It would leave a massive negative impression on the entire auction. I've said it before I think pulling that many key lots actually HURTS the remaining lots.

So, deceive bidders to benefit the consigners?

Suppose a bidder on a stolen lot called with some questions about it. Like, will you ship it out expedited so as to be presented as a birthday gift? Or, will you ship it UPS instead of Fedex, because my local Fedex driver is unreliable?

If you chose to continue the auction with the stolen lots, and you were on the phone with a bidder on some of those lots, would you basically lie directly to them, if it was necessary to continue the deceit? And I don't mean YOU, I mean the AH in this hypothetical.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 05-14-2024, 06:56 PM

One thing to consider that I hadn't really thought about, and I haven't read every post so maybe it's been discussed, is this: was it kosher for ML not to tell consignors for days that their cards had been stolen and were missing? To get Scott's take, would you feel comfortable not telling consignors, on the theory that you'd make them whole in the end anyhow?

Carter08 · #10 05-14-2024, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One thing to consider that I hadn't really thought about, and I haven't read every post so maybe it's been discussed, is this: was it kosher for ML not to tell consignors for days that their cards had been stolen and were missing? To get Scott's take, would you feel comfortable not telling consignors, on the theory that you'd make them whole in the end anyhow?

It seems like the side that is ok with running the fake auction has in mind establishing value from the results. If that was the purpose you can�t let the situation be known to consignors or anyone else or those results would be called even more into question. Pulling the items instead of running a fake auction would have allowed immediate communication with consignors.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 05-14-2024, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

It seems like the side that is ok with running the fake auction has in mind establishing value from the results. If that was the purpose you can�t let the situation be known to consignors or anyone else or those results would be called even more into question. Pulling the items instead of running a fake auction would have allowed immediate communication with consignors.

Yes absolutely. If you continue the auction, you have to keep it from them. So is that OK?

bnorth · #12 05-14-2024, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes absolutely. If you continue the auction, you have to keep it from them. So is that OK?

I will say if like ML and my legal council, Insurance company, and the PoPo all told me to run the auction. I would run the auction. To me it really is that simple. For anyone who missed it several hundred posts ago one of the few people that actually know what they are talking about posted that was what happened.

Mark17 · #13 05-14-2024, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I will say if like ML and my legal council, Insurance company, and the PoPo all told me to run the auction. I would run the auction. To me it really is that simple. For anyone who missed it several hundred posts ago one of the few people that actually know what they are talking about posted that was what happened.

This means nothing. ML's legal team has one job: Do what's in their clients' best interest. Nobody here is saying ML didn't do what was in their best interest.

Question is, was it in the best interest of bidders and consigners? Was it ethical or right?

Carter08 · #14 05-14-2024, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I will say if like ML and my legal council, Insurance company, and the PoPo all told me to run the auction. I would run the auction. To me it really is that simple. For anyone who missed it several hundred posts ago one of the few people that actually know what they are talking about posted that was what happened.

No one said they know this is what happened and it seems rather doubtful to many.

Mark17 · #15 05-14-2024, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes absolutely. If you continue the auction, you have to keep it from them. So is that OK?

Oh, what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive!

Lorewalker · #16 05-15-2024, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes absolutely. If you continue the auction, you have to keep it from them. So is that OK?

I have no opinion on whether or not the auction should have continued. I can convince myself either way that either choice is valid but I think it is ok to not have told the consignors until the end of the auction. The consignors were selling their cards. I think letting the auction run was favoring them anyway.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #17 05-14-2024, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One thing to consider that I hadn't really thought about, and I haven't read every post so maybe it's been discussed, is this: was it kosher for ML not to tell consignors for days that their cards had been stolen and were missing? To get Scott's take, would you feel comfortable not telling consignors, on the theory that you'd make them whole in the end anyhow?

Sorry to keep copping out, but I would do what my attorney and law enforcement told me.

What would I LIKE to do? Tell the consignors immediately, give everyone the option to pull their items (or remaining items as the case may be) and if too many consignors wanted out because of the situation, cancel the auction, tell everyone what happened and rely on insurance to make my affected consignors whole and return the items if consignors didn't want to reschedule them. I simply don't know if that was a possibility.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #18 05-14-2024, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

So, deceive bidders to benefit the consigners?

Suppose a bidder on a stolen lot called with some questions about it. Like, will you ship it out expedited so as to be presented as a birthday gift? Or, will you ship it UPS instead of Fedex, because my local Fedex driver is unreliable?

If you chose to continue the auction with the stolen lots, and you were on the phone with a bidder on some of those lots, would you basically lie directly to them, if it was necessary to continue the deceit? And I don't mean YOU, I mean the AH in this hypothetical.

I get it, and obviously I'm talking in hypotheticals as well, when not talking completely out of my ass.

I just can't imagine ML doing this without advice of counsel and possibly law enforcement. So I would have to turn to them in the scenario you outlined.

My fiduciary duty is to my consignor, that does NOT allow me to operate in bad faith with my buyers using that duty as a cover. With that in mind that is why I feel very strongly that this decision wasn't made lightly, or even independently of advice from counsel or an outright request form law enforcement.

Mark17 · #19 05-14-2024, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

So, deceive bidders to benefit the consigners?

Suppose a bidder on a stolen lot called with some questions about it. Like, will you ship it out expedited so as to be presented as a birthday gift? Or, will you ship it UPS instead of Fedex, because my local Fedex driver is unreliable?

If you chose to continue the auction with the stolen lots, and you were on the phone with a bidder on some of those lots, would you basically lie directly to them, if it was necessary to continue the deceit? And I don't mean YOU, I mean the AH in this hypothetical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I get it, and obviously I'm talking in hypotheticals as well, when not talking completely out of my ass.

I just can't imagine ML doing this without advice of counsel and possibly law enforcement. So I would have to turn to them in the scenario you outlined.

So if your attorney recommended you lie directly to your bidders, you would follow that advice, in order to keep the phantom auction lots alive and not risk revealing the true situation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My fiduciary duty is to my consignor, that does NOT allow me to operate in bad faith with my buyers using that duty as a cover. With that in mind that is why I feel very strongly that this decision wasn't made lightly, or even independently of advice from counsel or an outright request form law enforcement.

Here you seem to be saying you would go against your attorney's advice, if it meant dealing with your buyers in bad faith.

Everyone who is simplifying this down to: "Do what your attorney says" is basically saying: "your attorney will advise according to your self-interest, so do that - do what is in your self interest. Then hide behind your attorney."

Stuff (and money) trumps all.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #20 05-14-2024, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

So if your attorney recommended you lie directly to your bidders, you would follow that advice, in order to keep the phantom auction lots alive and not risk revealing the true situation?

Here you seem to be saying you would go against your attorney's advice, if it meant dealing with your buyers in bad faith.

Everyone who is simplifying this down to: "Do what your attorney says" is basically saying: "your attorney will advise according to your self-interest, so do that - do what is in your self interest. Then hide behind your attorney."

Stuff (and money) trumps all.

I think you have a flawed idea of an attorney's job. He isn't there to advise you to do what's in your best interest.

What if my best interest is to burn my business down to collect insurance? My attorney will tell me, hey, moron, that's a bad idea.

Attorneys on the board please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine your duty to your client involves giving them sound legal advice, not merely telling them what they want to hear.

Mark17 · #21 05-14-2024, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think you have a flawed idea of an attorney's job. He isn't there to advise you to do what's in your best interest.

What if my best interest is to burn my business down to collect insurance? My attorney will tell me, hey, moron, that's a bad idea.

Attorneys on the board please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine your duty to your client involves giving them sound legal advice, not merely telling them what they want to hear.

An attorney will not recommend illegal activity. But the attorney does represent the client and his interests. Also, we don't know how the consultation with the attorney(s) went down. It could've been the client saying, "Could I proceed this way?" And the attorney saying, "You could..." But that's all speculation.

Peter_Spaeth · #22 05-14-2024, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think you have a flawed idea of an attorney's job. He isn't there to advise you to do what's in your best interest.

What if my best interest is to burn my business down to collect insurance? My attorney will tell me, hey, moron, that's a bad idea.

Attorneys on the board please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine your duty to your client involves giving them sound legal advice, not merely telling them what they want to hear.

I think you're posing a false either or. Obviously one would not advise a client to break a law in a clear-cut situation. But many situations calling for legal advice are not so simple and one would certainly need to understand and take into account a client's business objectives and the consequences of different options.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #23 05-15-2024, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think you're posing a false either or. Obviously one would not advise a client to break a law in a clear-cut situation. But many situations calling for legal advice are not so simple and one would certainly need to understand and take into account a client's business objectives and the consequences of different options.

It was an exaggeration to make a point, what are your thoughts on my last sentence, that was the serious one.

Casey2296 · #24 05-14-2024, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think you have a flawed idea of an attorney's job. He isn't there to advise you to do what's in your best interest.

What if my best interest is to burn my business down to collect insurance? My attorney will tell me, hey, moron, that's a bad idea.

Attorneys on the board please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine your duty to your client involves giving them sound legal advice, not merely telling them what they want to hear.

Strictly hypothetical Scott and I won't hold your feet to the fire, but what do you think the consignors would have decided re; keeping the auction going, if they had been made aware of the situation a day after it happened?
I have no idea at what point they were notified so this is just a thought experiment.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #25 05-15-2024, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Strictly hypothetical Scott and I won't hold your feet to the fire, but what do you think the consignors would have decided re; keeping the auction going, if they had been made aware of the situation a day after it happened?
I have no idea at what point they were notified so this is just a thought experiment.

Let's put it this way, I'm not 100% but if I had been a consignor, my knee-jerk reaction, I would've wanted my stuff back, but I could've been talked out of that if presented with a compelling argument.

Exhibitman · #26 05-20-2024, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think you have a flawed idea of an attorney's job. He isn't there to advise you to do what's in your best interest.

What if my best interest is to burn my business down to collect insurance? My attorney will tell me, hey, moron, that's a bad idea.

Attorneys on the board please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine your duty to your client involves giving them sound legal advice, not merely telling them what they want to hear.

Broadly speaking, yes. I spend a great deal of my time, professionally speaking, advising clients about things that may subject them to criminal or civil liability. The obvious ones are easy. There are many situations where the answer is less of a black and white and more of a risk-reward assessment. My job in those cases is to advise the client on the pitfalls of each approach. Either way, the client has the final say and does whatever he or she wants. In other words 'my lawyer told me to' is a cop-out defense. I see it all the time with insurers when they are sued for bad faith and they assert an advice of counsel defense. That might get you clear of some aspects that require intent, but even then there is a limit on how credible it is as a defense. I don't see many murderers getting by on an advice of counsel defense. ML might as well try the Steve Martin defense instead:

You say, “Steve.. what do I say to the tax man when he comes to my door and says, ‘You.. have never paid taxes’?” Two simple words. Two simple words in the English language:

“I forgot!”

How many times do we let ourselves get into terrible situations because we don’t say “I forgot”? Let’s say you’re on trial for armed robbery. You say to the judge, “I forgot armed robbery was illegal.” Let’s suppose he says back to you, “You have committed a foul crime. you have stolen hundreds and thousands of dollars from people at random, and you say, ‘I forgot’?” Two simple words:

"Excuuuuuse me!!“

Aquarian Sports Cards · #27 05-20-2024, 02:10 PM

I am confused by the false equivalencies being posted.

How can people not understand the difference between intentionally operating in bad faith (posting a fake listing to drum up business, or create a comp point) and operating in good faith and having something go horribly wrong?

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