Memory Lane sold cards they didn't have per SCD

Mark17 · #1 05-14-2024, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

As a consignor, even if I didn't have one of the 54 stolen lots, I'd be pissed. It would leave a massive negative impression on the entire auction. I've said it before I think pulling that many key lots actually HURTS the remaining lots.

So, deceive bidders to benefit the consigners?

Suppose a bidder on a stolen lot called with some questions about it. Like, will you ship it out expedited so as to be presented as a birthday gift? Or, will you ship it UPS instead of Fedex, because my local Fedex driver is unreliable?

If you chose to continue the auction with the stolen lots, and you were on the phone with a bidder on some of those lots, would you basically lie directly to them, if it was necessary to continue the deceit? And I don't mean YOU, I mean the AH in this hypothetical.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 05-14-2024, 06:56 PM

One thing to consider that I hadn't really thought about, and I haven't read every post so maybe it's been discussed, is this: was it kosher for ML not to tell consignors for days that their cards had been stolen and were missing? To get Scott's take, would you feel comfortable not telling consignors, on the theory that you'd make them whole in the end anyhow?

Carter08 · #3 05-14-2024, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One thing to consider that I hadn't really thought about, and I haven't read every post so maybe it's been discussed, is this: was it kosher for ML not to tell consignors for days that their cards had been stolen and were missing? To get Scott's take, would you feel comfortable not telling consignors, on the theory that you'd make them whole in the end anyhow?

It seems like the side that is ok with running the fake auction has in mind establishing value from the results. If that was the purpose you can�t let the situation be known to consignors or anyone else or those results would be called even more into question. Pulling the items instead of running a fake auction would have allowed immediate communication with consignors.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 05-14-2024, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

It seems like the side that is ok with running the fake auction has in mind establishing value from the results. If that was the purpose you can�t let the situation be known to consignors or anyone else or those results would be called even more into question. Pulling the items instead of running a fake auction would have allowed immediate communication with consignors.

Yes absolutely. If you continue the auction, you have to keep it from them. So is that OK?

bnorth · #5 05-14-2024, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes absolutely. If you continue the auction, you have to keep it from them. So is that OK?

I will say if like ML and my legal council, Insurance company, and the PoPo all told me to run the auction. I would run the auction. To me it really is that simple. For anyone who missed it several hundred posts ago one of the few people that actually know what they are talking about posted that was what happened.

Mark17 · #6 05-14-2024, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I will say if like ML and my legal council, Insurance company, and the PoPo all told me to run the auction. I would run the auction. To me it really is that simple. For anyone who missed it several hundred posts ago one of the few people that actually know what they are talking about posted that was what happened.

This means nothing. ML's legal team has one job: Do what's in their clients' best interest. Nobody here is saying ML didn't do what was in their best interest.

Question is, was it in the best interest of bidders and consigners? Was it ethical or right?

bnorth · #7 05-14-2024, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

This means nothing. ML's legal team has one job: Do what's in their clients' best interest. Nobody here is saying ML didn't do what was in their best interest.

Question is, was it in the best interest of bidders and consigners? Was it ethical or right?

Even without their legal team the insurance company and the POLICE said to run the auction. Would you seriously not do what they recommended?

Carter08 · #8 05-14-2024, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I will say if like ML and my legal council, Insurance company, and the PoPo all told me to run the auction. I would run the auction. To me it really is that simple. For anyone who missed it several hundred posts ago one of the few people that actually know what they are talking about posted that was what happened.

No one said they know this is what happened and it seems rather doubtful to many.

BigfootIsReal · #9 05-14-2024, 07:39 PM

The Energizer Bunny.....it keeps going....and going....and going....

bnorth · #10 05-14-2024, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

No one said they know this is what happened and it seems rather doubtful to many.

Actually it was said that is what happened. It doesn't fit your opinion so you probably ignored it.

Republicaninmass · #11 05-14-2024, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

No one said they know this is what happened and it seems rather doubtful to many.

ad nauseam

With literally MILLIONS at stake you should have your head examined if you think they didn't ask insurance or legal what they should do.

Hence why the opinions of those making assumptions, who could not walk by, let alone purchase, millions of dollars in cards, don't matter.

G1911 · #12 05-14-2024, 08:11 PM

The insurance angle was thrown out without being stated to be true but a possibility, then the side that wants to justify the fake auction latched onto it. It is obviously not the case. No one can produce a single example of an insurance plan, policy, demand, decision or communique telling a claimant they must host a fake auction to assign value in all of human history for a reason - this is not how it works. This angle is pretty obviously false.

I would be a little surprised if their attorneys would have directly advised a course of action that seems to violate California consumer law, but it's possible. 'Maybe the police asked them to' is probably the best of these three possible justifications as none of us disgusting filthy poors who should not have any right to post an opinion have access to that investigation, so I don't know why they latched onto this clear falsehood so hard when there were better avenues to take.

Any auction house that embraces the principle of hosting fake fraudulent auctions to deceive bidders should lose bidders, but of course they won't. Stuff dictates ethics and the complete lack thereof. Even if that means covering up a theft of consigners property from consigners, and hosting a fraudulent auction lying to all of their bidders. If someone was handling my property, and it was stolen, don't we think I have a right to know that? Well, we would in any other case but not this one because we have priorities here $$$$$$$$$$$. Any of us bothered by this have probably already made the decision to not do business with Memory Lane considering Cohen's conviction for fraud and resulting prison term (https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news...ing-activities).

Mark17 · #13 05-14-2024, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes absolutely. If you continue the auction, you have to keep it from them. So is that OK?

Oh, what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practice to deceive!

Lorewalker · #14 05-15-2024, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Yes absolutely. If you continue the auction, you have to keep it from them. So is that OK?

I have no opinion on whether or not the auction should have continued. I can convince myself either way that either choice is valid but I think it is ok to not have told the consignors until the end of the auction. The consignors were selling their cards. I think letting the auction run was favoring them anyway.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #15 05-14-2024, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

One thing to consider that I hadn't really thought about, and I haven't read every post so maybe it's been discussed, is this: was it kosher for ML not to tell consignors for days that their cards had been stolen and were missing? To get Scott's take, would you feel comfortable not telling consignors, on the theory that you'd make them whole in the end anyhow?

Sorry to keep copping out, but I would do what my attorney and law enforcement told me.

What would I LIKE to do? Tell the consignors immediately, give everyone the option to pull their items (or remaining items as the case may be) and if too many consignors wanted out because of the situation, cancel the auction, tell everyone what happened and rely on insurance to make my affected consignors whole and return the items if consignors didn't want to reschedule them. I simply don't know if that was a possibility.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #16 05-14-2024, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

So, deceive bidders to benefit the consigners?

Suppose a bidder on a stolen lot called with some questions about it. Like, will you ship it out expedited so as to be presented as a birthday gift? Or, will you ship it UPS instead of Fedex, because my local Fedex driver is unreliable?

If you chose to continue the auction with the stolen lots, and you were on the phone with a bidder on some of those lots, would you basically lie directly to them, if it was necessary to continue the deceit? And I don't mean YOU, I mean the AH in this hypothetical.

I get it, and obviously I'm talking in hypotheticals as well, when not talking completely out of my ass.

I just can't imagine ML doing this without advice of counsel and possibly law enforcement. So I would have to turn to them in the scenario you outlined.

My fiduciary duty is to my consignor, that does NOT allow me to operate in bad faith with my buyers using that duty as a cover. With that in mind that is why I feel very strongly that this decision wasn't made lightly, or even independently of advice from counsel or an outright request form law enforcement.

Mark17 · #17 05-14-2024, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

So, deceive bidders to benefit the consigners?

Suppose a bidder on a stolen lot called with some questions about it. Like, will you ship it out expedited so as to be presented as a birthday gift? Or, will you ship it UPS instead of Fedex, because my local Fedex driver is unreliable?

If you chose to continue the auction with the stolen lots, and you were on the phone with a bidder on some of those lots, would you basically lie directly to them, if it was necessary to continue the deceit? And I don't mean YOU, I mean the AH in this hypothetical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I get it, and obviously I'm talking in hypotheticals as well, when not talking completely out of my ass.

I just can't imagine ML doing this without advice of counsel and possibly law enforcement. So I would have to turn to them in the scenario you outlined.

So if your attorney recommended you lie directly to your bidders, you would follow that advice, in order to keep the phantom auction lots alive and not risk revealing the true situation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My fiduciary duty is to my consignor, that does NOT allow me to operate in bad faith with my buyers using that duty as a cover. With that in mind that is why I feel very strongly that this decision wasn't made lightly, or even independently of advice from counsel or an outright request form law enforcement.

Here you seem to be saying you would go against your attorney's advice, if it meant dealing with your buyers in bad faith.

Everyone who is simplifying this down to: "Do what your attorney says" is basically saying: "your attorney will advise according to your self-interest, so do that - do what is in your self interest. Then hide behind your attorney."

Stuff (and money) trumps all.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #18 05-14-2024, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

So if your attorney recommended you lie directly to your bidders, you would follow that advice, in order to keep the phantom auction lots alive and not risk revealing the true situation?

Here you seem to be saying you would go against your attorney's advice, if it meant dealing with your buyers in bad faith.

Everyone who is simplifying this down to: "Do what your attorney says" is basically saying: "your attorney will advise according to your self-interest, so do that - do what is in your self interest. Then hide behind your attorney."

Stuff (and money) trumps all.

I think you have a flawed idea of an attorney's job. He isn't there to advise you to do what's in your best interest.

What if my best interest is to burn my business down to collect insurance? My attorney will tell me, hey, moron, that's a bad idea.

Attorneys on the board please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine your duty to your client involves giving them sound legal advice, not merely telling them what they want to hear.

Mark17 · #19 05-14-2024, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think you have a flawed idea of an attorney's job. He isn't there to advise you to do what's in your best interest.

What if my best interest is to burn my business down to collect insurance? My attorney will tell me, hey, moron, that's a bad idea.

Attorneys on the board please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine your duty to your client involves giving them sound legal advice, not merely telling them what they want to hear.

An attorney will not recommend illegal activity. But the attorney does represent the client and his interests. Also, we don't know how the consultation with the attorney(s) went down. It could've been the client saying, "Could I proceed this way?" And the attorney saying, "You could..." But that's all speculation.

Peter_Spaeth · #20 05-14-2024, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think you have a flawed idea of an attorney's job. He isn't there to advise you to do what's in your best interest.

What if my best interest is to burn my business down to collect insurance? My attorney will tell me, hey, moron, that's a bad idea.

Attorneys on the board please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine your duty to your client involves giving them sound legal advice, not merely telling them what they want to hear.

I think you're posing a false either or. Obviously one would not advise a client to break a law in a clear-cut situation. But many situations calling for legal advice are not so simple and one would certainly need to understand and take into account a client's business objectives and the consequences of different options.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #21 05-15-2024, 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think you're posing a false either or. Obviously one would not advise a client to break a law in a clear-cut situation. But many situations calling for legal advice are not so simple and one would certainly need to understand and take into account a client's business objectives and the consequences of different options.

It was an exaggeration to make a point, what are your thoughts on my last sentence, that was the serious one.

Casey2296 · #22 05-14-2024, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think you have a flawed idea of an attorney's job. He isn't there to advise you to do what's in your best interest.

What if my best interest is to burn my business down to collect insurance? My attorney will tell me, hey, moron, that's a bad idea.

Attorneys on the board please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine your duty to your client involves giving them sound legal advice, not merely telling them what they want to hear.

Strictly hypothetical Scott and I won't hold your feet to the fire, but what do you think the consignors would have decided re; keeping the auction going, if they had been made aware of the situation a day after it happened?
I have no idea at what point they were notified so this is just a thought experiment.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #23 05-15-2024, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Strictly hypothetical Scott and I won't hold your feet to the fire, but what do you think the consignors would have decided re; keeping the auction going, if they had been made aware of the situation a day after it happened?
I have no idea at what point they were notified so this is just a thought experiment.

Let's put it this way, I'm not 100% but if I had been a consignor, my knee-jerk reaction, I would've wanted my stuff back, but I could've been talked out of that if presented with a compelling argument.

Carter08 · #24 05-15-2024, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Let's put it this way, I'm not 100% but if I had been a consignor, my knee-jerk reaction, I would've wanted my stuff back, but I could've been talked out of that if presented with a compelling argument.

I think he meant if you were a consigner of one of the stolen items.

Exhibitman · #25 05-20-2024, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I think you have a flawed idea of an attorney's job. He isn't there to advise you to do what's in your best interest.

What if my best interest is to burn my business down to collect insurance? My attorney will tell me, hey, moron, that's a bad idea.

Attorneys on the board please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine your duty to your client involves giving them sound legal advice, not merely telling them what they want to hear.

Broadly speaking, yes. I spend a great deal of my time, professionally speaking, advising clients about things that may subject them to criminal or civil liability. The obvious ones are easy. There are many situations where the answer is less of a black and white and more of a risk-reward assessment. My job in those cases is to advise the client on the pitfalls of each approach. Either way, the client has the final say and does whatever he or she wants. In other words 'my lawyer told me to' is a cop-out defense. I see it all the time with insurers when they are sued for bad faith and they assert an advice of counsel defense. That might get you clear of some aspects that require intent, but even then there is a limit on how credible it is as a defense. I don't see many murderers getting by on an advice of counsel defense. ML might as well try the Steve Martin defense instead:

You say, “Steve.. what do I say to the tax man when he comes to my door and says, ‘You.. have never paid taxes’?” Two simple words. Two simple words in the English language:

“I forgot!”

How many times do we let ourselves get into terrible situations because we don’t say “I forgot”? Let’s say you’re on trial for armed robbery. You say to the judge, “I forgot armed robbery was illegal.” Let’s suppose he says back to you, “You have committed a foul crime. you have stolen hundreds and thousands of dollars from people at random, and you say, ‘I forgot’?” Two simple words:

"Excuuuuuse me!!“

Aquarian Sports Cards · #26 05-20-2024, 02:10 PM

I am confused by the false equivalencies being posted.

How can people not understand the difference between intentionally operating in bad faith (posting a fake listing to drum up business, or create a comp point) and operating in good faith and having something go horribly wrong?

Exhibitman · #27 05-20-2024, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I am confused by the false equivalencies being posted.

How can people not understand the difference between intentionally operating in bad faith (posting a fake listing to drum up business, or create a comp point) and operating in good faith and having something go horribly wrong?

I don't think anyone credible is saying that the auctioneer was not operating in good faith and did not have something go horribly wrong. The disagreement is about what the auctioneer did after something went horribly wrong. The choice there was really simple: let bidders think they will get the cards they win or end the lots and not let bidders think they will get the cards they win. Me, personally, I choose the route that doesn't involve misleading innocent people. I don't see why that is a big stretch.

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