Poll - Greatest Living Player

darwinbulldog · #1 06-28-2024, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by isiahfan

Picked Bonds as well.....but surprised that AROD only has 2 votes....if picking a player for a team.....all other things aside....and you can grab a good SS that hits almost 700HR.....sign me up!

Right? The number of people who think not only that they like Jeter more but who sincerely believe he was a better baseball player than A-Rod still surprises me.

jingram058 · #2 06-28-2024, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Right? The number of people who think not only that they like Jeter more but who sincerely believe he was a better baseball player than A-Rod still surprises me.

Officially, he is. Because he didn't illegally juice. Why do you guys pretend that it never happened?

aro13 · #3 06-28-2024, 11:23 AM

For anyone that saw Koufax pitch he will always be the greatest pitcher they ever saw. Nobody can change that.

However, no one had more circumstances or advantages that favored him than probably anyone in history including Bonds.

He was a very good pitcher up until 1961 who happened to pitch in a lousy home park in the Coliseum. In 1962 the Dodgers moved to Dodger Stadium the greatest pitchers park in history. In 1963 the strike zone was made larger both up (a huge advantage for fastball pitchers that worked up in the zone) and down. In 1962 mound heights were virtually ignored and when Koufax pitched in Dodger Stadium he was pitching down hill. At home Koufax walked 2.1 men per nine on the road 3.5 men per nine. Check out the perfect game by Koufax when a complete unknown named Bob Hendley threw a one hitter in the same game. The mound height was crazy high.

The best example of the mound height and the influence in Dodger Stadium is in 1964 when Dean Chance of the Angels (who happened to be playing their home games in Dodger Stadium until Anaheim stadium was built) won the CY Young award by posting a 1.07 era at Dodger Stadium.

Evaluating Koufax is really hard, if you just look at the raw numbers he has a place in the discussion for greatest ever but if you look at the circumstances it sways the decision. I don't know where to put him, but you would likely be better off trying to convince people that the world is flat than Koufax wasn't an elite pitcher.

G1911 · #4 06-28-2024, 02:38 PM

I know this is a thread where ascertainable facts are an annoyance, but I can never resist the use of provable facts to support an argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aro13

He was a very good pitcher up until 1961 who happened to pitch in a lousy home park in the Coliseum.

Koufax posted an ERA+ of 100 through 1960. He performed at exactly league average, not "very good".

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Because he didn't illegally juice. Why do you guys pretend that it never happened?

For the second time, not a single poster in this thread has argued the steroid era did not happen or pretended it did not. They just do not come to your blacklist conclusion, which is entirely different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Officially, he is.

Officially? Jeter is officially better than A-Rod? What is this official proclamation? Who issued it? Where can I find it?

bnorth · #5 06-28-2024, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Officially? Jeter is officially better than A-Rod? What is this official proclamation? Who issued it? Where can I find it?

I will admit I only hate 2 players in baseball and A-Rod is one of them. I can't say Jeter was better. I will say I have never seen anyone in baseball play/try to win harder every single game than Jeter.

jayshum · #6 06-28-2024, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I will admit I only hate 2 players in baseball and A-Rod is one of them. I can't say Jeter was better. I will say I have never seen anyone in baseball play/try to win harder every single game than Jeter.

I guess you never saw Pete Rose play.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 06-28-2024, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

I guess you never saw Pete Rose play.

There is a story probably true. Rose goes 6 for 8 in a double header. Afterwards, he persuaded someone to keep the lights on and someone to pitch to him, and is taking batting practice. Someone asks him what the hell he is doing, he went 6 for 8 that day. Rose says, they got me out twice.

Quote definitely true: "I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball."

It's a total shame his gambling addiction undid him.

G1911 · #8 06-28-2024, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I will admit I only hate 2 players in baseball and A-Rod is one of them. I can't say Jeter was better. I will say I have never seen anyone in baseball play/try to win harder every single game than Jeter.

That is precisely the difference that is ignored by most posts. Who one likes more and who is better at the sport are completely unrelated things. A-Rod is obnoxious, but he's one of the 2 best shortstops ever. Barry Bonds publicly acts like an enormous jackass and used steroids, but that doesn't change that only Babe Ruth dominated the game offensively like he did. Jeter had a likable and positive public persona and PR, but that doesn't change actual performance.

I don't really understand a concept of 'liking' a person I don't know or hating a person I don't know (I mean, I guess I could hate Mel Hall or John Wetteland...), but wherever one leans emotionally has nothing to do with objective and honest evaluation. Claims to fact should not be made if those claims are untrue just because they support a preferred candidate.

Carter08 · #9 06-28-2024, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

That is precisely the difference that is ignored by most posts. Who one likes more and who is better at the sport are completely unrelated things. A-Rod is obnoxious, but he's one of the 2 best shortstops ever. Barry Bonds publicly acts like an enormous jackass and used steroids, but that doesn't change that only Babe Ruth dominated the game offensively like he did. Jeter had a likable and positive public persona and PR, but that doesn't change actual performance.

I don't really understand a concept of 'liking' a person I don't know or hating a person I don't know (I mean, I guess I could hate Mel Hall or John Wetteland...), but wherever one leans emotionally has nothing to do with objective and honest evaluation. Claims to fact should not be made if those claims are untrue just because they support a preferred candidate.

Normally I would agree with this but for me taking Jeter over Arod is about more than just stats. I can firmly say I believe he is the greater player over ARod with his clubhouse presence and other intangibles, including just seeking to have a killer instinct at exactly the right moment. Arod seemed like a self-centered jerk who caused distractions and was suspended for cheating. I think my fictional team with Jeter beats a team with Arod over the long run.

aro13 · #10 06-28-2024, 04:23 PM

"I know this is a thread where ascertainable facts are an annoyance, but I can never resist the use of provable facts to support an argument."

"Quote:
Originally Posted by aro13 View Post

He was a very good pitcher up until 1961 who happened to pitch in a lousy home park in the Coliseum.
Koufax posted an ERA+ of 100 through 1960. He performed at exactly league average, not "very good".

Koufax was very good up until 1961 and then became otherworldly - he just happened to pitch in the LA Coliseum with it's 253 foot left field line.

In 1961 on the road Koufax had a 2.77 era and more than a strikeout an inning. In 1960 Koufax on the road Koufax had a 3.00 era and had 126 strikeouts in 105 innings. Those are stats of a very good pitcher. Had he pitched his home games anywhere but the Coliseum no one would have said he learned to control his stuff in 1962. In 1962 his era on the road was 3.53 and he struck out 98 men in 81 innings. But he also happened to move into Dodger Stadium that year and put up a 1.75 era there. Koufax was already a very good pitcher in 1960, all that happened in 1962 was that he switched from a horrible pitchers park to a great one and in 1963 the strike zone was enlarged. It wasn't some great devine intervention or the words of a backup catcher.

G1911 · #11 06-28-2024, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aro13

"I know this is a thread where ascertainable facts are an annoyance, but I can never resist the use of provable facts to support an argument."

"Quote:
Originally Posted by aro13 View Post

He was a very good pitcher up until 1961 who happened to pitch in a lousy home park in the Coliseum.
Koufax posted an ERA+ of 100 through 1960. He performed at exactly league average, not "very good".

Koufax was very good up until 1961 and then became otherworldly - he just happened to pitch in the LA Coliseum with it's 253 foot left field line.

In 1961 on the road Koufax had a 2.77 era and more than a strikeout an inning. In 1960 Koufax on the road Koufax had a 3.00 era and had 126 strikeouts in 105 innings. Those are stats of a very good pitcher. Had he pitched his home games anywhere but the Coliseum no one would have said he learned to control his stuff in 1962. In 1962 his era on the road was 3.53 and he struck out 98 men in 81 innings. But he also happened to move into Dodger Stadium that year and put up a 1.75 era there. Koufax was already a very good pitcher in 1960, all that happened in 1962 was that he switched from a horrible pitchers park to a great one and in 1963 the strike zone was enlarged. It wasn't some great devine intervention or the words of a backup catcher.

Again, he was factually not "very good" until 1961 - he performed literally at the league average until 1961. I have said not a single word about divine intervention or a backup catcher, I corrected a demonstrably false claim about his career through 1960 that stats after 1960 are utterly irrelevant too.

EDIT: ERA+ is park adjusted, which is why it was used over ERA.

aro13 · #12 06-28-2024, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Again, he was factually not "very good" until 1961 - he performed literally at the league average until 1961. I have said not a single word about divine intervention or a backup catcher, I corrected a demonstrably false claim about his career through 1960 that stats after 1960 are utterly irrelevant too.

Huh? You're using ERA+ without understanding that Koufax had a huge disadvantage pitching in the Coliseum. Take out his coliseum numbers and his ERA+ changes to 30% above average. That's a very good pitcher. His road numbers were literally no different from 1960 to 1966. He was a very good pitcher in 1960 and 1961.

bnorth · #13 06-28-2024, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Officially, he is. Because he didn't illegally juice. Why do you guys pretend that it never happened?

Probably because most are naming a player that they are totally overlooking their PED use because it didn't happen in the so called steroid era.. LOL, seriously Roger Maris was named as a clean player in this thread. The same guy that played 12 years and hit 22% of his total HRs in one season. If he played in the steroid era with those exact same numbers is there anyone who would believe that was a PED free season?

Peter_Spaeth · #14 06-28-2024, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Probably because most are naming a player that they are totally overlooking their PED use because it didn't happen in the so called steroid era.. LOL, seriously Roger Maris was named as a clean player in this thread. The same guy that played 12 years and hit 22% of his total HRs in one season. If he played in the steroid era with those exact same numbers is there anyone who would believe that was a PED free season?

Norm Cash had an insane 1961 too.

Carter08 · #15 06-28-2024, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jingram058

Officially, he is. Because he didn't illegally juice. Why do you guys pretend that it never happened?

Would take Jeter over Arod hands down, especially in the playoffs.

packs · #16 06-28-2024, 01:10 PM

Roger Maris won the 1960 MVP award. His 1961 season was not an aberration, he was already the reigning MVP.

If he hit 61 homers in 2023 he wouldn't have been under anymore scrutiny than Aaron Judge was. He was 26 years old in 1961, typically a player's physical peak. I don't see anything to speculate about.

The only reason 1961 is such a large portion of his total production is because he went through physical and mental hell just to complete the year that took an obvious toll on him in every way.

bnorth · #17 06-28-2024, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Roger Maris won the 1960 MVP award. His 1961 season was not an aberration, he was already the reigning MVP.

If he hit 61 homers in 2023 he wouldn't have been under anymore scrutiny than Aaron Judge was. He was 26 years old in 1961, typically a player's physical peak. I don't see anything to speculate about.

The only reason 1961 is such a large portion of his total production is because he went through physical and mental hell just to complete the year that took an obvious toll on him in every way.

To the bold part. We need the rolling on the floor laughing emoji.

Arron Judge is a 6'7" beast that looks like a body builder without his shirt on. Pretty sure he is PED free also.

packs · #18 06-28-2024, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

To the bold part. We need the rolling on the floor laughing emoji.

Arron Judge is a 6'7" beast that looks like a body builder without his shirt on. Pretty sure he is PED free also.

Do you not believe that there are 6 foot 7 people in the world? How much do you think the average 6 foot 7 person weighs? What do you think the average 6 foot 7 NBA player looks like with his shirt off? I don't know what you're suggesting.

Roger Maris led the AL in slugging and RBIs in 1960. His OPS+ that year was 160. In 1961, his OPS+ after hitting 61 home runs was 167.

He essentially had the same season twice, with the caveat that he hit 61 home runs the second time. And if you don't believe Roger went through hell that season, I have several books and articles I could suggest that might shine a light on what he went through.

bnorth · #19 06-28-2024, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Do you not believe that there are 6 foot 7 people in the world? How much do you think the average 6 foot 7 person weighs? What do you think the average 6 foot 7 NBA player looks like with his shirt off? I don't know what you're suggesting.

Roger Maris led the AL in slugging and RBIs in 1960. His OPS+ that year was 160. In 1961, his OPS+ after hitting 61 home runs was 167.

He essentially had the same season twice, with the caveat that he hit 61 home runs the second time. How that suggests he was cheating is beyond me. And if you don't believe Roger went through hell that season, I have several books I could suggest that might shine a light on what he went through.

I do truly believe Roger did go through hell that season. As for PEDs we have way different beliefs. Do you really think the NBA guys are PED free?

I honestly don't get people that think professional athletes are PED free. Drug test are way more of an IQ test than a drug test. Just look at how many times Lance Arrmstrong tested positive. Oh that's right he never failed an IQ, I mean drug test.

SyrNy1960 · #20 06-28-2024, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter08

Would take Jeter over Arod hands down, especially in the playoffs.

Except in 2009: Alex Rodriguez batted.365 with 19 hits, 6 home runs, 18 RBIs and 15 runs scored in 15 games in the 2009 postseason.

Peter_Spaeth · #21 06-28-2024, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Right? The number of people who think not only that they like Jeter more but who sincerely believe he was a better baseball player than A-Rod still surprises me.

Of course there is no comparison, but Jeter was everything intangible that ARod was not -- clean, modest, team oriented, and at least perceived to be a clutch hitter. The perfect foil to the ultimate prima donna.

View Poll Results: Who is the greatest living player today?
Ronald Acuna Jr	1	0.24%
Johnny Bench	16	3.85%
Mookie Betts	0	0%
Barry Bonds	116	27.88%
Steve Carlton	0	0%
Roger Clemens	2	0.48%
Ken Griifey Jr	38	9.13%
Rickey Henderson	27	6.49%
Randy Johnson	3	0.72%
Sandy Koufax	52	12.50%
Greg Maddux	7	1.68%
Pedro Martinez	5	1.20%
Shohei Ohtani	18	4.33%
Albert Pujols	16	3.85%
Cal Ripken Jr	5	1.20%
Alex Rodriguez	0	0%
Pete Rose	39	9.38%
Nolan Ryan	34	8.17%
Mike Schmidt	17	4.09%
Ichiro Suzuki	7	1.68%
Mike Trout	1	0.24%
Other	12	2.88%
Voters: 416. You may not vote on this poll

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