Psa theft ransom

Snapolit1 · #1 07-16-2024, 07:43 AM

Realize you put it in the vault by accident, but this is precisely the type of horsesh*t that keeps me 1000 miles away from anyone’s “vault”. Cards go in my own personal vault.

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #2 07-16-2024, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Realize you put it in the vault by accident, but this is precisely the type of horsesh*t that keeps me 1000 miles away from anyone “vault”.

Yep. This "vault" idea is for the birds. That's what banks are for. If I want access to my items, I want it immediately and I want the material close at hand. Vault. Sheesh.

Rhotchkiss · #3 07-16-2024, 08:05 AM

Even if it was a valid debt/charge, which it sounds like maybe it is not, I doubt they could collect on a debt over 5 years old. Seems to me you likely have several legal legs to stand on. The problem is who wants to go to war (and pay to go to war) with PSA, over $700? Have you called PSA yet? If so, what was their response?

Republicaninmass · #4 07-16-2024, 08:16 AM

Pretty misleading title with what's happened over the last week.

Bad form IMO

G1911 · #5 07-16-2024, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Pretty misleading title with what's happened over the last week.

Bad form IMO

What event happened this week that you think precludes criticizing PSA?

LEHR · #6 07-16-2024, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Yep. This "vault" idea is for the birds. That's what banks are for. If I want access to my items, I want it immediately and I want the material close at hand. Vault. Sheesh.

There's noting any company could say or do to get me to use one of these "vaults". I personally don't do the bank boxes either but I definitely do that over a vault service.

tycobb · #7 07-16-2024, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Realize you put it in the vault by accident, but this is precisely the type of horsesh*t that keeps me 1000 miles away from anyone�s �vault�. Cards go in my own personal vault.

agree

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doug.goodman · #8 07-16-2024, 11:56 AM

I'm confused. How much is the amount that they claim you owe?

Aquarian Sports Cards · #9 07-16-2024, 12:16 PM

A charge back isn't a legal proceeding as far as I know. Just because the credit card company found in your favor doesn't mean the vendor that got charged back has to agree with them. In their opinion you still owe them and I doubt there's much you can do about it.

Django7975 · #10 07-16-2024, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

A charge back isn't a legal proceeding as far as I know. Just because the credit card company found in your favor doesn't mean the vendor that got charged back has to agree with them. In their opinion you still owe them and I doubt there's much you can do about it.

I agree. But theft of property from an item acquired from eBay is something I can do something about. I will be making a police report stating theft and then I will send a copy of the police report along with an ad litem notice giving them a time frame to mail me back my property. Then I�ll have to press charges if they can�t do the right thing.

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raulus · #11 07-16-2024, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Django7975

I agree. But theft of property awaited from eBay, is something I can do something about. I will be making a police report stating theft and then I will send a copy of the police report along with an ad litem notice giving them a time frame to mail me back my property. Then I�ll have to press charges if they can�t do the right thing.

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Good luck!

Let us know how it goes.

It is instructive that apparently the eBay vault is now serving as a debt collector for all of the various parties under the same corporate umbrella. Not that we needed another reason to be wary of such vaults, but this certainly doesn't help to recommend it.

Django7975 · #12 07-16-2024, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

Good luck!

Let us know how it goes.

It is instructive that apparently the eBay vault is now serving as a debt collector for all of the various parties under the same corporate umbrella. Not that we needed another reason to be wary of such vaults, but this certainly doesn't help to recommend it.

Thank you.

I really appreciate all the supportive comments and the very helpful pm I received. This is what makes this the best community in the hobby. I appreciate all of you.

David

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Aquarian Sports Cards · #13 07-16-2024, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Django7975

I agree. But theft of property from an item acquired from eBay is something I can do something about. I will be making a police report stating theft and then I will send a copy of the police report along with an ad litem notice giving them a time frame to mail me back my property. Then I’ll have to press charges if they can’t do the right thing.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not getting the theft angle. You said you erroneously placed it in the vault. "I purchased the card in question in April of 2024 and erroneously placed it in the vault." That's not theft. Then the vault changed hands as part of a business deal, but nobody stole your card.

Django7975 · #14 07-16-2024, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I'm not getting the theft angle. You said you erroneously placed it in the vault. "I purchased the card in question in April of 2024 and erroneously placed it in the vault." That's not theft. Then the vault changed hands as part of a business deal, but nobody stole your card.

I have requested numerous times for my card to be shipped to me. They won�t ship me my card. They took my property in a deal they made with someone else and are now refusing to send me my property. This is the definition of theft. To take someone�s property without their consent and refuse to return it.

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Mark17 · #15 07-16-2024, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I'm not getting the theft angle. You said you erroneously placed it in the vault. "I purchased the card in question in April of 2024 and erroneously placed it in the vault." That's not theft. Then the vault changed hands as part of a business deal, but nobody stole your card.

Suppose you have a dispute over a business deal, where you and a former partner each think he is owed $50,000 from the other. There's your side of the story, and his. The ongoing dispute lasts a few years without resolution.

Meanwhile, in an unrelated matter, you take your BMW to your local mechanic for an oil change. And then, surprise, your former partner buys that mechanic shop, and now holds your BMW hostage. Either capitulate on the other, unrelated dispute, or you don't get your car back.

Is that legal, fair, ethical?

jayshum · #16 07-17-2024, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I'm not getting the theft angle. You said you erroneously placed it in the vault. "I purchased the card in question in April of 2024 and erroneously placed it in the vault." That's not theft. Then the vault changed hands as part of a business deal, but nobody stole your card.

It will be interesting to see if the OP can convince the police to file a report of theft for him or if they tell him it's a business issue he needs to work out with them. Plenty of lawyers on the board but I don't think any have offered their opinion on this.

japhi · #17 07-17-2024, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Realize you put it in the vault by accident, but this is precisely the type of horsesh*t that keeps me 1000 miles away from anyone�s �vault�. Cards go in my own personal vault.

Amen. I also don't think folks realize the risk associated with storing high value items with a for profit, mostly unregulated business. I don't believe PSA will go out of business, but far bigger businesses have and good luck collecting items when SHTF.

A few high profile examples of this in wine storage over the past decade.

packs · #18 07-17-2024, 10:51 AM

Wouldn't a vendor have to accept the chargeback for your money to be refunded? I tried to do a chargeback when an item from an AH was stolen from my home before I could receive it. My bank requested the money back on my behalf but the AH refused to return it because they said the item was "delivered" and my chargeback request was denied.

I only received my money back when I messaged the AH owner and cut out the customer service reps who insisted it was my problem. The AH cut me a refund check in the end.

I guess what I'm asking is: did PSA return your money? If they chose to, it's hard to understand why they're asking for it back when they already had it to begin with and could have said no.

D. Bergin · #19 07-17-2024, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Wouldn't a vendor have to accept the chargeback for your money to be refunded? I tried to do a chargeback when an item from an AH was stolen from my home before I could receive it. My bank requested the money back on my behalf but the AH refused to return it because they said the item was "delivered" and my chargeback request was denied.

I only received my money back when I messaged the AH owner and cut out the customer service reps who insisted it was my problem. The AH cut me a refund check in the end.

I guess what I'm asking is: did PSA return your money? If they chose to, it's hard to understand why they're asking for it back when they already had it to begin with and could have said no.

No, you lost your case based on the evidence presented (tracking showed delivered).

He won his case, based on the evidence presented (he wasn't granted the service he requested).

Both cases were arbitrarily decided by the credit card company.

A vendor can voluntarily grant a "refund", but a "chargeback" is usually forced (and also costs the vendor an additional "chargeback fee" if they lose the case).

PSA didnt' return his money. The Credit Card company took it from them and gave it back to him...likely with an additional fee tacked on.

packs · #20 07-17-2024, 12:18 PM

Ah. I guess I should have mentioned I paid with a debit card and not credit card. My bank couldn't enforce anything. They always said they could only request it. But I guess that's because I didn't use credit.

D. Bergin · #21 07-17-2024, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

Ah. I guess I should have mentioned I paid with a debit card and not credit card. My bank couldn't enforce anything. They always said they could only request it. But I guess that's because I didn't use credit.

I think in your case it was because the tracking showed "delivered". Because you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, it counts as a win for the auction house in the eyes of the credit card company. From there, it becomes "voluntary" for the Auction House to request a "refund" for you.

Don't think it matters whether it's a Debit or Credit card. My wife has certainly challenged dubious charges on our Debit Card before.

Exhibitman · #22 07-17-2024, 12:56 PM

What the OP has here is a great secured transactions course law school test question. Unfortunately.

Let's break this down a little more carefully.

The initial situation that produced the alleged debt dates back some years. When the charge-back, or whatever the OP calls it, was granted, it represents a start date for the loser to take action on that claim and creates an end date (called the "limitations period"). if you snooze through the limitations period, you lose. I won a trial in a commercial case on this issue earlier this year where the plaintiff sat on its rights for 14 years before suing my client. Whether my client owed the money was irrelevant; the case was stale and the debt unenforceable on that basis.

Generally, this sort of underlying dispute would be viewed as a contract case, which typically has a window of action under either state law or the contract (if the state law is waivable). Regardless of who won, once there was a final "screw you, I am not paying" statement made, it triggers the time within which the creditor must take action. Once that window runs out, an enforcement action would be time-barred, unless the parties waive the time limit contractually. Whether a blanket perpetual waiver is valid would have to be tested under the law of the state with jurisdiction over the contract; some states protect consumers from this sort of stuff, some don't. In PSA's case, that is California; in eBay's case it is now Utah, used to be California. So, first resort is to the contract that controlled the transaction. If that contract is silent on enforcement, then state law controls the time frame to enforce. If the creditor missed its window, its claim is dead and cannot be legally enforced.

This has huge ramifications for the vault owner because the vault is considered a "bailment": the bailor (card owner) gives the card to the bailee (the vault service) to hold it for them. Typically, this creates a series of duties, defined either by state law or by agreement, that control how the bailee handles the item. A bailee normally cannot hand over control of an item to a creditor of the bailor without a court order and has potential liability exposure for doing so. One common exception is a contract that allows the bailee to use the item to pay costs owed to it. Most of the time this requires notice and an auction of the items. I have never seen a bailment agreement that allows the bailee to hold the item hostage for payment of a debt, but it could be the case.

The acquisition of the vault by the creditor greatly complicates things. If the bailor operates under a specific contract and/or state law that does not allow a turnover of items without a turnover order, or that mandates a process of seizing and selling the items with proper notices to the bailor, then the bailor is potentially liable for "conversion" of the item it wrongfully withholds. What the OP may have is a case where the bailment agreement and law does not allow what has been done but where the contract between the initial parties does. If the contract between the former creditor and the debtor/owner allows for a turnover, a court might just allow it once the two entities are merged. Or it might not, especially if the underlying debt is expired and unenforceable. Either way, I would not counsel a bailee client in this situation to withhold the item without a very clear legal basis or a court order.

Situations like these are bound to arise as these vaults and contactless transactions grow in popularity. Kinda sucks that you need a lawyer to buy a baseball card, but that's where it has gone.

jayshum · #23 07-17-2024, 03:05 PM

Adam, thanks for clearing that up.

I wish the OP good luck in getting his card back, but it sounds like it might require a lawyer more than a police report which would likely cost more than what is claimed to be owed by PSA.

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