Biggest MVP snubs ever

cgjackson222 · #1 07-17-2024, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

The Dodgers won 102 games in 1974 and in those days, I think it was more likely for a player on a division winning team to be voted MVP even if someone else had better stats but was on a team that missed the playoffs.

Then it should have been Jim Wynn.

G1911 · #2 07-17-2024, 11:20 AM

The AL was also a bad choice in 1974, there were numerous guys better than Jeff Burroughs that year, ignoring new analytics that determine this and just using the stats of that time.

D. Bergin · #3 07-17-2024, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

The AL was also a bad choice in 1974, there were numerous guys better than Jeff Burroughs that year, ignoring new analytics that determine this and just using the stats of that time.

RBI's were a much bigger deal then, then they are now...and he led the league in that category by quite a bit.

Doesn't explain why Johnny Bench didn't win it that year in the NL, but I think that, in combination with Texas surprisingly successful season, and the lack of defensive metrics (which kills Burroughs in the modern era), had a lot to do with him winning it that year.

G1911 · #4 07-17-2024, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

RBI's were a much bigger deal then, then they are now...and he led the league in that category by quite a bit.

Doesn't explain why Johnny Bench didn't win it that year in the NL, but I think that, in combination with Texas surprisingly successful season, and the lack of defensive metrics (which kills Burroughs in the modern era), had a lot to do with him winning it that year.

There's always a reason, but it isn't a good reason. Carew, Dick Allen, there are several better choices that don't use modern analytics to make their case and were better with the traditional stats.

D. Bergin · #5 07-17-2024, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

There's always a reason, but it isn't a good reason. Carew, Dick Allen, there are several better choices that don't use modern analytics to make their case and were better with the traditional stats.

Of course, but I'll come up with reasons anyways.

Dick Allen missed a boatload of games for a 4th place team, likely didn't even pass the eye test defensively by that point in his career at 1st Base, and was also busy cementing his bad boy status by then.

Carew. It has almost always been very hard for high average, low power guys like him, Wade Boggs, Tony Gwynn, etc...to get MVP votes. Even when he did win the award in 1977, Al Cowens somehow got within sniffing distance of him in the voting, even though Carew batted .388, while playing almost every game that year, and dominating in several other non-power categories for the season.

jayshum · #6 07-17-2024, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Then it should have been Jim Wynn.

Garvey led Wynn in hits and batting average by a lot and RBIs by 3 in 1974. Wynn had 11 more home runs and 9 more runs scored. Garvey was also a gold glove winner that year so he was considered to be a good fielder (apparently still up for debate now). Those were the stats considered most important back then. People weren't looking at OBP and OPS or other advanced metrics. Based on those stats, it's not surprising Garvey won the MVP over Wynn.

cgjackson222 · #7 07-17-2024, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Garvey led Wynn in hits and batting average by a lot and RBIs by 3 in 1974. Wynn had 11 more home runs and 9 more runs scored. Garvey was also a gold glove winner that year so he was considered to be a good fielder (apparently still up for debate now). Those were the stats considered most important back then. People weren't looking at OBP and OPS or other advanced metrics. Based on those stats, it's not surprising Garvey won the MVP over Wynn.

Okay, but I am not sure the purpose of this thread is to make excuses for poor decisions/reconstruct the reasons for the poor decisions, that occurred back in the day. I am not at all surprised Garvey won the MVP (for all the reasons you have provided and more), I am just saying he didn't deserve to win the MVP for a variety of reasons.

Yes, it was often customary to hand over the MVP to a player on a team that won a lot of games and had a lot of hits. But that doesn't make it the right decision.

rats60 · #8 07-17-2024, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

Okay, but I am not sure the purpose of this thread is to make excuses for poor decisions/reconstruct the reasons for the poor decisions, that occurred back in the day. I am not at all surprised Garvey won the MVP (for all the reasons you have provided and more), I am just saying he didn't deserve to win the MVP for a variety of reasons.

Yes, it was often customary to hand over the MVP to a player on a team that won a lot of games and had a lot of hits. But that doesn't make it the right decision.

It is an opinion. Some people value batting average and RBI more than OBP especially for a middle of the lineup guy. The team that wins is the one that scores the most runs, not the one that gets the most runners on base, or has the highest OPS+ or WAR. At some point, real production should trump theoretical stats.

D. Bergin · #9 07-17-2024, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

It is an opinion. Some people value batting average and RBI more than OBP especially for a middle of the lineup guy. The team that wins is the one that scores the most runs, not the one that gets the most runners on base, or has the highest OPS+ or WAR. At some point, real production should trump theoretical stats.

I think it could also be argued, that the team that scores the most runs, almost always, ALSO got the most runners on base, and has the highest OPS+ and WAR rates for their players.....or close to it, at least.

cgjackson222 · #10 07-17-2024, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

It is an opinion. Some people value batting average and RBI more than OBP especially for a middle of the lineup guy. The team that wins is the one that scores the most runs, not the one that gets the most runners on base, or has the highest OPS+ or WAR. At some point, real production should trump theoretical stats.

Okay, but I am not just talking about "theoretical stats." Mike Schmidt led the League in HRs (15 more than Garvey) and had more RBIs and Runs than Steve Garvey. Just because LA won a lot of games, doesn't mean you should just hand the trophy over to Garvey when you have Jim Wynn on their team. Let's not forget that LA also had the Cy Young winner and 2 of the other top 4 Cy Young winners on the team. So its not like Garvey was a one-man show.

The Reds finished 4 games behind the Dodges for 2nd in the NL West. You could have easily given the MVP award to Johnny Bench, who had one of the best years of his career, with 33 HRs and a league leading 129 RBIs, while playing a Gold Glove catcher.

Are you seriously arguing that Steve Garvey deserved the MVP in '74?

G1911 · #11 07-17-2024, 04:20 PM

Garvey did not lead the league in a single offensive category in 1974. It�s not hypothetical stats that show this was a bad call. There�s not a single stat that supports the choice.

Carter08 · #12 07-17-2024, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

Garvey did not lead the league in a single offensive category in 1974. It�s not hypothetical stats that show this was a bad call. There�s not a single stat that supports the choice.

Agreed. Vote just shows that, as someone pointed out, there used to be a huge emphasis on whether the player was on a division winning team. Dodgers won their division and Phils were 8 games back. Doesn�t help that Schmidt was a relatively new name in 1974. But yeah, by just about any metric, he was better.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
My biggest sub	familytoad	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	9	02-22-2013 06:54 PM
Who is the biggest culprit?	mintacular	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	64	01-23-2012 12:06 PM
My biggest regret.........	YankeeCollector	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	12	10-12-2011 07:08 PM
My biggest pre-war purchase	Woundedduck	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	9	07-29-2011 03:04 PM
The biggest one you let get away?	Archive	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	16	03-09-2008 08:26 PM