Theft at Philly Show

[taul166]

I saw some chatter on YouTube about a theft of a nice, graded 1933 Goudey Ruth (Red) from a dealer who was set up at this past weekend's show.

Does anyone know if this in fact happened or know any specifics?

[philliesfan]

I was set up at the show and I did not hear anything about that.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I did hear about it, though I forget who the victim was. Apparently the classic 2 guys distraction ploy.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I did hear about it, though I forget who the victim was. Apparently the classic 2 guys distraction ploy.

Hopefully they were caught on video, although I guess so far that hasn't solved the Dallas case as far as we know.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Even more incentive as a dealer to stay home and do your business completely online.

With the huge amounts of cash behind dealer tables at shows, these thieves may eventually start weighing the logic of robbing dealers for their money as opposed to items which have to be fenced. Cards have many different ways to be identified; cash does not.

Just one of countless reasons why I'd never set up at a show again. I've done enough of that to last me several lifetimes. What was fun over 30 years ago is today my idea of a horrible way to spend a weekend. Not interested in the torture of getting cornered into long conversations with people who don't spend a dime while a potential sale walks away, let alone the increasing risk of theft or robbery.

[Zach Wheat]

The day will come when dealers at shows won't bring expensive cards to shows anymore.

[parkplace33]

I heard the same thing.

This is now a trend at major (and some small) shows. Be very vigilant out there. Especially to and from shows.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

The day will come when dealers at shows won't bring expensive cards to shows anymore.

Or they will hire some professional security help.

[NYYFan63]

There was security walking the show floor but I only saw 1-2 security guards/cops.

[theshowandme]

Yes, I can confirm the theft.

A dealer was also targeted and followed from the show. They had their car windows smashed and had a backpack stolen from their vehicle. This is discussed on the Blowout Forums and was told to me directly by the dealer.

Talking to two close friends who set up, that is the third time a dealer has been followed off-premises and hit in the last year.

It has happened at the WaWa down the road and at other food establishments.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Yes, I can confirm the theft.

A dealer was also targeted and followed from the show. They had their car windows smashed and had a backpack stolen from their vehicle. This is discussed on the Blowout Forums and was told to me directly by the dealer.

Talking to two close friends who set up, that is the third time a dealer has been followed off-premises and hit in the last year.

It has happened at the WaWa down the road and at other food establishments.

That last part is scary.

I think some dealers and patrons have taken a cavalier attitude towards this. Not meant to be scary, but whenever you have a large amount of cash and collectibles in one location, they can be targeted very easy. It scares me when I see dealers set up by themselves with no help. I hope that changes in the future.

[Hankphenom]

Be it ever thus. I'm sure there were thefts at the first show ever held and just about every one since. If it gets endemic, security will have to be ramped up accordingly. When I was a kid in the 1950s, we knew that if you left your bike or baseball glove unattended too long at a playground, they might not be there when you got back. Now, if dealers are getting mugged, that's a whole new ugly ballgame, and the promoters and venues will have to beef up security to try to stop it. Dealers will have to travel in pairs or packs, etc. Cameras everywhere, of course.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Be it ever thus. I'm sure there were thefts at the first show ever held and just about every one since. If it gets endemic, security will have to be ramped up accordingly. When I was a kid in the 1950s, we knew that if you left your bike or baseball glove unattended too long at a playground, they might not be there when you got back. Now, if dealers are getting mugged, that's a whole new ugly ballgame, and the promoters and venues will have to beef up security to try to stop it. Dealers will have to travel in pairs or packs, etc. Cameras everywhere, of course.

Two thoughts:

1. To be blunt, most show promoters don't take security into account. Its minimal at best, even at the bigger shows. I don't think that changes.

2. Thefts have happened , but 2024 has (sadly) been a banner year for big times thefts. Two that stand out are the Memory Lane Fiasco and the Dallas Show Theft. We are talking about over a million dollars of items stolen. If that doesn't change how people act at shows, then nothing will.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

Yes, I can confirm the theft.

A dealer was also targeted and followed from the show. They had their car windows smashed and had a backpack stolen from their vehicle. This is discussed on the Blowout Forums and was told to me directly by the dealer.

Talking to two close friends who set up, that is the third time a dealer has been followed off-premises and hit in the last year.

It has happened at the WaWa down the road and at other food establishments.

Wasn't there a similar theft from a car at the National? Thought I read about that.

[Schlesinj]

I spoke to the local police who attended the show. They had other private security too. Stinks in general that we have some bad people.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

The theft at food stops nearby is pretty scary. I never even considered that possibility and often stop right outside the show as there are a good amount of choices. So as vigilant as I think I am, apparently I've just gotten lucky (or my stuff just doesn't inspire thieves lol)

[Johnny630]

Word has gotten out over the past few years that many if not all dealers at these bigger shows are wearing, carrying, and or transporting large some's of cash to and from venues. All are hopefully keeping there business to themselves and alternating routes and normal routines at these shows...mix it up next time. They know the dealer circuit...and your behavioral patterns. They see the same dealers at the same shows month after month quarter after quarter year after year doing same..don't do the same routine mix it up a little.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

Two thoughts:
1. To be blunt, most show promoters don't take security into account. Its minimal at best, even at the bigger shows. I don't think that changes.
2. Thefts have happened , but 2024 has (sadly) been a banner year for big times thefts. Two that stand out are the Memory Lane Fiasco and the Dallas Show Theft. We are talking about over a million dollars of items stolen. If that doesn't change how people act at shows, then nothing will.

As I said, if it becomes endemic, promoters will have to beef up security, passing along the costs, of course. But very large thefts have occurred going back many years, the 1991 Anaheim National from McKee/Bosley and Huggins and Scott getting their truck hit in the parking lot at Valley Forge some years ago coming to mind, I'm sure there have been others in addition to innumerable smaller thefts over the years. A wild guess would be that there are 100 individuals and teams at the National every year whose sole purpose is to try to rip dealers off, and any good sized show will have a dozen or so there for that purpose and that purpose only. As for personal security, I remember at the Chicago National in 1998 getting a little tipsy while sitting in on a late-night bar meeting of autograph heavyweights that lead to the formation of PSA, then walking the skyway back to my car on the roof of the parking garage and thinking, "this is not smart, I've got thousands of dollars of cash and collectibles in my bag, and there is not another soul in sight, anything could happen." I was lucky and made it back OK, but just the thought of what might have been made me more cautious after that.

[MJRaider]

Starting to feel inevitable that something really tragic happens one of these days.

[raulus]

Got to wonder when insurance companies will start to jack up rates, or else charge extra for shows. Seems like it’s only a matter of time.

[toppszl1]

I attended the show and didn’t see any security, as a matter of fact the checkers at the door weren’t even inspected wrist bands, it’s a shame with this beautiful hobby that people steal right in broad daylight.

Every vendor was very kind and knowledgeable, this breaks my heart and makes me furious.

[Directly]

A Gold dealer friend of mine purchased $54,000 in Gold Bullion Coins. He was being watched by thieves during the coin show. They followed him to a Cracker Barrel. While inside they popped the door lock and took his briefcase with all the gold coins. If he hadn't left the coins in his car, they had put a spike under his tire to rob him. His good fortune they got what they wanted--

[theshowandme]

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Wasn't there a similar theft from a car at the National? Thought I read about that.

The theft at the National was from an unlocked car. I believe a briefcase with around $275K was stolen.

[steve B]

One dealer I see at shows for a different hobby has boxes of items. All small and easily stolen if someone really wanted to.
But all the expensive ones are only represented by photocopies, and you have to ask to see them. One item at a time, and they have a couple people in the booth.

The off site stuff is more worrying, as they could just as easily target an attendee who bought a great card.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by theshowandme

That is a very nice 4. I feel terrible for that dealer.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jayshum

The theft at the National was from an unlocked car. I believe a briefcase with around $275K was stolen.

That's really nuts, not to at least keep the briefcase in the trunk if the car has one or keep it with you at all times. But the car unlocked with the briefcase inside? There's no words for that. And they must be playing in a different league--how many bring 275K in cash to a show, even the National?

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

That's really nuts, not to at least keep the briefcase in the trunk if the car has one or keep it with you at all times. But the car unlocked with the briefcase inside? There's no words for that. And they must be playing in a different league--how many bring 275K in cash to a show, even the National?

Here's a link to an article about the theft at the National. While I was surprised by the amount of cash, I was told by a dealer at the Philly Show that having that much cash on hand at the National is not uncommon.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...rs-convention/

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Here's a link to an article about the theft at the National. While I was surprised by the amount of cash, I was told by a dealer at the Philly Show that having that much cash on hand at the National is not uncommon.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...rs-convention/

You better believe it. By both dealers and buyers.

Again, all the more reason to be vigilant.

[G1911]

Is not common sense anymore to not leave $54,000 of gold or $275,000 of cash or cards in your vehicle parked in a public access spot?

The victim of a crime is never at fault, but your odds of being one are greatly higher if common sense is not utilized.

[Qcards]

My friend is a full time coin dealer and has told me that dealers are being followed into underground garages after shows and held up at gunpoint.

He also mentioned a dealer being followed from a show in Montreal and when he stopped in Kingston for lunch, his car was rifled and there was over half a million dollars in cash and bullion.

He had air tags inside the bag but they were cut out and ditched by the bad guys

[CurtisFlood]

One of the funniest things I had occur as a dealer was when a customer walked up and asked me if I wanted to look at his cards. When I reached out for his small stack of cards he pulled back and would not let me take them. Guess he though I was going to rip him off. At that point I told him I wasn't interested.

[Brent G.]

It seems two things could help alleviate some of the risk:

• Stop dealing in cash -- just use the same methods we do here to make sales/purchases. I guess this would require some to pay taxes who don't wanna. It does seem illegal drugs and card shows are the last paper money businesses.

• Hire private security or have a close associate with a .38 or .40 open-carried on their hip to tell criminals you aren't the target they're looking for.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Here's a link to an article about the theft at the National. While I was surprised by the amount of cash, I was told by a dealer at the Philly Show that having that much cash on hand at the National is not uncommon.

I was going to write that must make for some interesting scenes at their banks, but then I realized that money never sees the inside of a bank. It must be like the Sopranos, where Tony would hit up a shoebox in the ceiling or a trash can in the back yard when he needed cash.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

It does seem illegal drugs and card shows are the last paper money businesses.

Are other big collectible shows like this? Coins, stamps, comics, toys, etc., are they mostly cash in/cash out?

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Are other big collectible shows like this? Coins, stamps, comics, toys, etc., are they mostly cash in/cash out?

I'm sure they're the same -- just remove "card" and insert "collectables." I think there’s a lot less $$$ rolling around at those.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

I think there’s a lot less $$$ rolling around at those.

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

[theshowandme]

At this point I think there are more $1 million+ sales in coins than cards

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...xpensive_coins

[Snapolit1]

Funny how many folks anguish over how terrible Atlantic City is. Has there even been a big Atlantic City theft? Can’t recall one.

[theshowandme]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Funny how many folks anguish over how terrible Atlantic City is. Has there even been a big Atlantic City theft? Can’t recall one.

A dealer was walking around the 2022 show with a busted up face after being mugged outside the show

[Lucas00]

Official post from the dealer himself.

[ClementeFanOh]

This is sad news, I am sorry for Paul Borges that he was victimized in this
way. A few observations:

1) Seems like surging popularity of the hobby has incurred this
consequence. Where large amounts of money and valuables are, bad
people are also. I recall telling someone that the floor of the National in
Cleveland looked like a casino.

2) It is hard to overemphasize the need for ALL parties to be vigilant at
shows. Organizers- especially at larger venues- get the proper security!
If you have to charge $5 entry instead of free admission to compensate,
do it. Those who transact the most will consider it a drop in a bucket.
Sellers- take a helper whose function is to watch your stuff. Don't default
by saying it's inconvenient, do it. Buyers/guests- be watchful at all times.
Don't throw some hissy fit about "rights violations" if you are required to
show a valid form of ID (not your Avengers membership card). Make it
harder on the bad guys and they may skip the show you are attending.
Doesn't that sound desirable?

3) Someone above mentioned no cash at shows. Wow, I have no words.
Of course cash needs to be at shows- the people holding the cash and
event organizers need to work to make it as safe as possible.

4) For those of you who choose to carry a weapon or who are thinking about
it, know the laws in your state that apply. This is especially true for carry
in vehicles.


Since certain segments of this board tend to turn even the most helpful
or thorough comments into a cause to engage in hyperbole, I am not
suggesting a police state at shows. I am also not suggesting that shows
should look like an episode of Gunsmoke. It's clear there's a burgeoning
problem and that acting, rather than talking about it, is the answer.

Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

That truly sucks. I didn't read the whole thread, I hope he at least has insurance.

[GWmotorlodge]

I started doing shows when I was 12 in the late 80’s, I was as lucky enough to be mentored by some of the dealers that had larger collections, most are deceased or on their last leg, but even back then it was the norm to have a firearm on you(at least for the guys who had something worth stealing). Not sure why it would change now, all of the cards are worth that much more. I’m not a gun advocate at all, I don’t even own one, but it does make sense to carry, I would think. Or maybe people are getting to soft these days.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by GWmotorlodge

I started doing shows when I was 12 in the late 80’s, I was as lucky enough to be mentored by some of the dealers that had larger collections, most are deceased or on their last leg, but even back then it was the norm to have a firearm on you(at least for the guys who had something worth stealing). Not sure why it would change now, all of the cards are worth that much more. I’m not a gun advocate at all, I don’t even own one, but it does make sense to carry, I would think. Or maybe people are getting to soft these days.

Each state has it's own laws and restrictions in terms of who, where, what type and when a gun may be carried and many do not reciprocate permits from other states. It is a frequently changing literal maze of laws and regulations. You also can't shoot someone for stealing (at least in my state), only if there is a threat of imminent physical harm and no means of egress. It is important for anyone considering this to thoroughly learn and understand the laws in their state and any other state they are thinking about carrying their weapon into.

[G1911]

All of the theft threads get into guns before the end. It is not a solution. Even in 2nd Amendment honoring free states it is not legal to shoot somebody for attempting a theft.

These incidents have not been thieves threatening the dealer or anyone else, or doing so in a way that would make a reasonable person fear for the lives of themselves or others. It's been breaking into an unoccupied car (or in one case, just opening the unlocked car) or grabbing while a dealer isn't looking. That's not a legal reason to shoot them, nor is it an ethical one. Carrying a gun, if one so chooses, is a responsibility that requires one to de-escalate, not shoot anyone who breaks a law, especially in a public venue. It is a tool of last resort, not a first resort to show how tough one is or to shoot any lawbreaker. In none of these of incidents would even drawing ones weapon be legal or ethical. In none of them would responsible carry have changed the outcome whatsoever.

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911- The weapon issue has 3 components:

1) An individual carrier may feel safer while carrying.

2) Carrying a weapon to react to a robbery- NOT a theft- is certainly
plausible. Guys who follow a dealer or collector to their homes have
moved past theft, and into territory where a carrier could articulate the
use of a weapon for defense.

3) Again, the mere presence of a weapon might well persuade a bad guy
to try someone else. "An armed society is a polite society".

To be clear enough that even you will have a hard time twisting it, I am not
remotely suggesting that weapon possession is the primary deterrent at
shows. I have never thought to myself that I may need to protect my life
at a sports card show, and hope I never will. The weapon carry conversation
is one aspect of a wide range of precautionary measures which, if
undertaken diligently and consistently, would often prevent more drastic
measures. I'm well aware you think quite highly of your knowledge base, but
I'm very, very confident on this issue. We should all be on the same
team here, I can't imagine anyone thinking that continued high dollar
theft/robbery at shows we attend, is something to ignore or pass to others
as "their problem, not mine".

Trent King

[G1911]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911- The weapon issue has 3 components:

1) An individual carrier may feel safer while carrying.

2) Carrying a weapon to react to a robbery- NOT a theft- is certainly
plausible. Guys who follow a dealer or collector to their homes have
moved past theft, and into territory where a carrier could articulate the
use of a weapon for defense.

3) Again, the mere presence of a weapon might well persuade a bad guy
to try someone else. "An armed society is a polite society".

To be clear enough that even you will have a hard time twisting it, I am not
remotely suggesting that weapon possession is the primary deterrent at
shows. I have never thought to myself that I may need to protect my life
at a sports card show, and hope I never will. The weapon carry conversation
is one aspect of a wide range of precautionary measures which, if
undertaken diligently and consistently, would often prevent more drastic
measures. I'm well aware you think quite highly of your knowledge base, but
I'm very, very confident on this issue. We should all be on the same
team here, I can't imagine anyone thinking that continued high dollar
theft/robbery at shows we attend, is something to ignore or pass to others
as "their problem, not mine".

Trent King

1) I mean sure, carry for other things if you are going to do so responsibly and with control.

2) I have yet to see any evidence of such an incident? It's probably happened at some point in the last 40 years but absolutely none of the threads we have had this year about this spate of thefts ever posed any danger to anyones life.

3) Again, it is not legal to draw your gun and brandish it on someone for committing a theft or you suspect committed a theft. In none of the actual real world incidents we have discussed would producing the weapon, a requirement to persuade a bad guy to stop, be legal or even ethical.

Guns are for extreme cases where there are no better options, not a tool to stop anything negative or to feel good.

When did I say thefts should be ignored? I'd leave to see where I said that.

[ClementeFanOh]

G1911-

1) Some commenters in this thread very clearly mentioned incidents of
showgoers being followed beyond the show site. This goes beyond mere
Theft by deception.

2) On the other hand, not one commenter (that I recall) mentioned or
advocated brandishing a weapon at a suspected thief in a show hall.
Rather obviously, lethal force isn't justified in such a situation- but again,
no one mentioned it as an option, other than you in the negative.

3) This really isn't difficult. People are searching for ways to protect their
property or person at shows or beyond them. Personal carry is just one
way.

4) Again, I am very well-schooled in this area so I'm not going to take the
bait for some contorted debate. The notion that people are willing to
discuss gun carry is a symptom of this growing problem at shows, not the
cause. My comment about "passing the problem" applies to all of us.

Done and dusted, Trent King

[Peter_Spaeth]

Trent, I may not be following you, but how does carrying a weapon act as a deterrent unless would be thieves know the dealer has one? Do you put a sign on your table saying you're armed?