Theft at Philly Show

GWmotorlodge · #1 09-29-2024, 01:06 AM

I started doing shows when I was 12 in the late 80’s, I was as lucky enough to be mentored by some of the dealers that had larger collections, most are deceased or on their last leg, but even back then it was the norm to have a firearm on you(at least for the guys who had something worth stealing). Not sure why it would change now, all of the cards are worth that much more. I’m not a gun advocate at all, I don’t even own one, but it does make sense to carry, I would think. Or maybe people are getting to soft these days.

hcv123 · #2 09-29-2024, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GWmotorlodge

I started doing shows when I was 12 in the late 80�s, I was as lucky enough to be mentored by some of the dealers that had larger collections, most are deceased or on their last leg, but even back then it was the norm to have a firearm on you(at least for the guys who had something worth stealing). Not sure why it would change now, all of the cards are worth that much more. I�m not a gun advocate at all, I don�t even own one, but it does make sense to carry, I would think. Or maybe people are getting to soft these days.

Each state has it's own laws and restrictions in terms of who, where, what type and when a gun may be carried and many do not reciprocate permits from other states. It is a frequently changing literal maze of laws and regulations. You also can't shoot someone for stealing (at least in my state), only if there is a threat of imminent physical harm and no means of egress. It is important for anyone considering this to thoroughly learn and understand the laws in their state and any other state they are thinking about carrying their weapon into.

G1911 · #3 09-29-2024, 10:57 AM

All of the theft threads get into guns before the end. It is not a solution. Even in 2nd Amendment honoring free states it is not legal to shoot somebody for attempting a theft.

These incidents have not been thieves threatening the dealer or anyone else, or doing so in a way that would make a reasonable person fear for the lives of themselves or others. It's been breaking into an unoccupied car (or in one case, just opening the unlocked car) or grabbing while a dealer isn't looking. That's not a legal reason to shoot them, nor is it an ethical one. Carrying a gun, if one so chooses, is a responsibility that requires one to de-escalate, not shoot anyone who breaks a law, especially in a public venue. It is a tool of last resort, not a first resort to show how tough one is or to shoot any lawbreaker. In none of these of incidents would even drawing ones weapon be legal or ethical. In none of them would responsible carry have changed the outcome whatsoever.

ClementeFanOh · #4 09-29-2024, 11:18 AM

G1911- The weapon issue has 3 components:

1) An individual carrier may feel safer while carrying.

2) Carrying a weapon to react to a robbery- NOT a theft- is certainly
plausible. Guys who follow a dealer or collector to their homes have
moved past theft, and into territory where a carrier could articulate the
use of a weapon for defense.

3) Again, the mere presence of a weapon might well persuade a bad guy
to try someone else. "An armed society is a polite society".

To be clear enough that even you will have a hard time twisting it, I am not
remotely suggesting that weapon possession is the primary deterrent at
shows. I have never thought to myself that I may need to protect my life
at a sports card show, and hope I never will. The weapon carry conversation
is one aspect of a wide range of precautionary measures which, if
undertaken diligently and consistently, would often prevent more drastic
measures. I'm well aware you think quite highly of your knowledge base, but
I'm very, very confident on this issue. We should all be on the same
team here, I can't imagine anyone thinking that continued high dollar
theft/robbery at shows we attend, is something to ignore or pass to others
as "their problem, not mine".

Trent King

G1911 · #5 09-29-2024, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911- The weapon issue has 3 components:

1) An individual carrier may feel safer while carrying.

2) Carrying a weapon to react to a robbery- NOT a theft- is certainly
plausible. Guys who follow a dealer or collector to their homes have
moved past theft, and into territory where a carrier could articulate the
use of a weapon for defense.

3) Again, the mere presence of a weapon might well persuade a bad guy
to try someone else. "An armed society is a polite society".

To be clear enough that even you will have a hard time twisting it, I am not
remotely suggesting that weapon possession is the primary deterrent at
shows. I have never thought to myself that I may need to protect my life
at a sports card show, and hope I never will. The weapon carry conversation
is one aspect of a wide range of precautionary measures which, if
undertaken diligently and consistently, would often prevent more drastic
measures. I'm well aware you think quite highly of your knowledge base, but
I'm very, very confident on this issue. We should all be on the same
team here, I can't imagine anyone thinking that continued high dollar
theft/robbery at shows we attend, is something to ignore or pass to others
as "their problem, not mine".

Trent King

1) I mean sure, carry for other things if you are going to do so responsibly and with control.

2) I have yet to see any evidence of such an incident? It's probably happened at some point in the last 40 years but absolutely none of the threads we have had this year about this spate of thefts ever posed any danger to anyones life.

3) Again, it is not legal to draw your gun and brandish it on someone for committing a theft or you suspect committed a theft. In none of the actual real world incidents we have discussed would producing the weapon, a requirement to persuade a bad guy to stop, be legal or even ethical.

Guns are for extreme cases where there are no better options, not a tool to stop anything negative or to feel good.

When did I say thefts should be ignored? I'd leave to see where I said that.

ClementeFanOh · #6 09-29-2024, 12:00 PM

G1911-

1) Some commenters in this thread very clearly mentioned incidents of
showgoers being followed beyond the show site. This goes beyond mere
Theft by deception.

2) On the other hand, not one commenter (that I recall) mentioned or
advocated brandishing a weapon at a suspected thief in a show hall.
Rather obviously, lethal force isn't justified in such a situation- but again,
no one mentioned it as an option, other than you in the negative.

3) This really isn't difficult. People are searching for ways to protect their
property or person at shows or beyond them. Personal carry is just one
way.

4) Again, I am very well-schooled in this area so I'm not going to take the
bait for some contorted debate. The notion that people are willing to
discuss gun carry is a symptom of this growing problem at shows, not the
cause. My comment about "passing the problem" applies to all of us.

Done and dusted, Trent King

Peter_Spaeth · #7 09-29-2024, 12:06 PM

Trent, I may not be following you, but how does carrying a weapon act as a deterrent unless would be thieves know the dealer has one? Do you put a sign on your table saying you're armed?

G1911 · #8 09-29-2024, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

G1911-

1) Some commenters in this thread very clearly mentioned incidents of
showgoers being followed beyond the show site. This goes beyond mere
Theft by deception.

2) On the other hand, not one commenter (that I recall) mentioned or
advocated brandishing a weapon at a suspected thief in a show hall.
Rather obviously, lethal force isn't justified in such a situation- but again,
no one mentioned it as an option, other than you in the negative.

3) This really isn't difficult. People are searching for ways to protect their
property or person at shows or beyond them. Personal carry is just one
way.

4) Again, I am very well-schooled in this area so I'm not going to take the
bait for some contorted debate. The notion that people are willing to
discuss gun carry is a symptom of this growing problem at shows, not the
cause. My comment about "passing the problem" applies to all of us.

Done and dusted, Trent King

1) Followed, and an unoccupied vehicle broken into at a restaurant parking lot. That's not free rein to use your gun. Again, the gun would not have helped this incident.

2) As I recall, someone did bring that scenario into the 500 post thread on the front page about the in-show theft. It was a little concerning.

3) How is the presence of a concealed firearm going to deter a criminal unless it is first drawn? Read your previous post? Again, it would not have changed any of these cases. I am all in favor of carrying a gun, but it is not for these kinds of thefts.

4) You don't seem to be very well schooled or responsible whatsoever.

Done and dusted 'em

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