eras committee candidates baseball HOF

Tabe · #1 11-16-2024, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

But in typical Tabe fashion, he only looks at Batting Average and HRs and dismisses everything else.

It's almost like I didn't include OPS+ in my post.

But, sure a .373 OBP with a .387 slugging percentage is great.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #2 11-17-2024, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

It's almost like I didn't include OPS+ in my post.

But, sure a .373 OBP with a .387 slugging percentage is great.

For a second basemen from his era it's damn near otherworldly. A middle infielder who slugged .400 was an extreme rarity.

Tabe · #3 11-18-2024, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

For a second basemen from his era it's damn near otherworldly. A middle infielder who slugged .400 was an extreme rarity.

Which was exactly my point. A .387 slugging in any era at any position is nowhere near great. But Grich gets a lot of benefit from it because his 2B contemporaries were terrible at the plate.

OhioLawyerF5 · #4 11-18-2024, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Which was exactly my point. A .387 slugging in any era at any position is nowhere near great. But Grich gets a lot of benefit from it because his 2B contemporaries were terrible at the plate.

Don't you think it makes sense to evaluate a player against his contemporaries? The ones facing the same competition under the same circumstances?

Tabe · #5 11-18-2024, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

Don't you think it makes sense to evaluate a player against his contemporaries? The ones facing the same competition under the same circumstances?

Sure. But if you put me in a foot race against a bunch of newborns, and I win by a mile, that doesn't make me actually fast.

I'm not saying Grich wasn't very good or whatever. I'm saying his resume is inflated because his contemporaries were terrible.

BillyCoxDodgers3B · #6 11-18-2024, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

I'm not saying Grich wasn't very good or whatever. I'm saying his resume is inflated because his contemporaries were terrible.

Exactly. That's what I'm getting out of all of this as well. I know I'll be corrected if my interpretation is wrong, but a formula that offers a larger statistical reward based on the incompetence of his peers at the same position is not one that I would ever fully recognize. "Everyone else stinks, so by default you're awesome"?!

John1941 · #7 11-18-2024, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyCoxDodgers3B

Exactly. I know I'll be corrected if my interpretation is wrong, but a formula that offers a larger statistical reward based on the incompetence of his peers at the same position is not one that I would ever fully recognize. "Everyone else stinks, so by default you're awesome"?! That's rich. If it works for you, wonderful.

I don't think your interpretation is wrong, but the differences in statistical reward or demerit are typically very small across eras.

The only cases I know of where there are substantial differences - like how in the 1910s WAR rates 2b as a perfectly neutral position, offensively - is where the position as a whole has actually changed: second base became more of a fielder's position starting around 1925 or so. In which case the difference isn't due to second baseman becoming worse hitters but to a strategic shift.

OhioLawyerF5 · #8 11-18-2024, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Sure. But if you put me in a foot race against a bunch of newborns, and I win by a mile, that doesn't make me actually fast.

I'm not saying Grich wasn't very good or whatever. I'm saying his resume is inflated because his contemporaries were terrible.

His contemporaries were "terrible" because you are comparing them to other players from other eras, who weren't playing in the same era against the same pitchers, etc... It becomes circular logic. All you can do is recognize that his contemporaries were the best in the world at the time. So it's not racing babies. It's the best on earth, and he was near the top of the best.

cgjackson222 · #9 11-18-2024, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

His contemporaries were "terrible" because you are comparing them to other players from other eras, who weren't playing in the same era against the same pitchers, etc... It becomes circular logic. All you can do is recognize that his contemporaries were the best in the world at the time. So it's not racing babies. It's the best on earth, and he was near the top of the best.

+1

How one could come to the conclusion that the players in MLB in 1973 were "terrible" is absurd.

And for all of Tabe's talk about Grich's hitting not being impressive to him, he's still missing the point that Grich had the greatest fielding year of his career in 1973 (which says a lot), and that is a very large part of why his WAR was so high.

Tabe · #10 11-20-2024, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

His contemporaries were "terrible" because you are comparing them to other players from other eras, who weren't playing in the same era against the same pitchers, etc... It becomes circular logic. All you can do is recognize that his contemporaries were the best in the world at the time. So it's not racing babies. It's the best on earth, and he was near the top of the best.

.617
.804
.625
.691
.597
.648
.692
.881 (Carew)
.545
.699
.703

That's the OPS of the other 2B in the AL in 1973. The average OPS was .710. 9 out of 11 were below that, with one guy 165 below that.

His contemporaries sucked.

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