Richie Allen and Dave Parker.

Peter_Spaeth · #1 12-12-2024, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

He was so so bad with the Dodgers, and walking to the plate to "Don't Worry Be Happy" was so so annoying...

.158 in 75 games. He's just NOT getting into the Hall with a .254 lifetime BA IMO, I don't care how many great catches he made or that he had some great power years.

cgjackson222 · #2 12-13-2024, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

.158 in 75 games. He's just NOT getting into the Hall with a .254 lifetime BA IMO, I don't care how many great catches he made or that he had some great power years.

The only position player with a lower lifetime batting average than Andruw Jones in the HOF is catcher Ray Schalk at .253. Then comes Killebrew at .256.

There are certainly other players with double digit Gold Gloves that have yet to get in—Vizquel and Keith Hernandez each had 11. But who knows, just need some friends as voters.

Tabe · #3 12-13-2024, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgjackson222

There are certainly other players with double digit Gold Gloves that have yet to get in�Vizquel and Keith Hernandez each had 11. But who knows, just need some friends as voters.

If Bill Mazeroski can get in for his defense while being below to WAY below average at the plate literally every single season, then Andruw Jones should waltz right in.

rats60 · #4 12-13-2024, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

.158 in 75 games. He's just NOT getting into the Hall with a .254 lifetime BA IMO, I don't care how many great catches he made or that he had some great power years.

Andruw Jones received 61% of the vote in the last HOF election. No player who has received 50% of the BBWAA vote has not been elected except for steroid guys. Did Jones use steroids? With only Billy Wagner ahead of him and in his 10th year on the ballot, Jones has 3 more tries. Most likely he is elected in the next 3 years.

darwinbulldog · #5 12-13-2024, 09:29 AM

Any predictions of who may appear on the 2027 ballot?

lumberjack · #6 12-13-2024, 10:17 AM

For a while, Don Mattingly WAS Lou Gehrig, but his body broke down. Even a hurt Don Mattingly could still play, but....The Hall is about longevity (otherwise Bird Fidrych, Pete Reiser and Joe Wood may have made it in.

Cracker Schalk, as a catcher, recorded a putout at every based and averaged
100 assists a year (or one per game played, if you like), during his career. This is inconceivable in modern baseball. My point here bein', you can't compare areas.

Maz could turn a DP in his sleep (and, yes, he probably disrupted Ralph Terry's sleep as well). The DP part is what he got paid for and what got him to Cooperstown.

Killebrew, I never really got, but he hit homers and he did it well, which is exactly what they asked of him.

I stand corrected on Dick Allen being a questionable team player, but in his prime years he never lasted long in any one city. Every time he was traded, it was for players of lesser value (Tommy John is no exception as he hadn't pitched winning baseball for years, McCarver was past his prime and Willie Montanez had a total of two official MLB at bats).

Was Dick Allen really hated that much by front offices?

There are examples of guys who could play, but couldn't stick anywhere. Not many examples, but there are a few. Hornsby, top of the list, Alex Johnson, Billy Martin, even Lou Novikoff (MLB actually used a guy with one arm rather than give a contract to Lou Novikoff.

clydepepper · #7 12-13-2024, 10:41 AM

Even though he didn't want it if he wasn't around, Luis Tiant, Jr. should have gotten in.

Sorry they let you down Luis.

.

darwinbulldog · #8 12-13-2024, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumberjack

For a while, Don Mattingly WAS Lou Gehrig, but his body broke down.

Wow, sounds like a real bad break for [checks notes] Don Mattingly?

rats60 · #9 12-13-2024, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

Any predictions of who may appear on the 2027 ballot?

Buster Posey and Jon Lester are the strongest candidates. In 2026 it is Ryan Braun and Cole Hamels. Jones strongest competition from returning candidates are Carlos Beltan and CC Sabathia if they don't get in this year. I can see two 2 player classes of Jones, Sabathia, Beltran and Posey for 2026 and 2027.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 12-13-2024, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Buster Posey and Jon Lester are the strongest candidates. In 2026 it is Ryan Braun and Cole Hamels. Jones strongest competition from returning candidates are Carlos Beltan and CC Sabathia if they don't get in this year. I can see two 2 player classes of Jones, Sabathia, Beltran and Posey for 2026 and 2027.

I don't see Lester, Braun or Hamels as HOFers off the top of my head. The other three should make it, and I suppose Jones might get over the top as well especially with not strong competition.

egri · #11 12-13-2024, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't see Lester, Braun or Hamels as HOFers off the top of my head. The other three should make it, and I suppose Jones might get over the top as well especially with not strong competition.

I think Lester has a stronger Veteran's Committee case (or whatever they're calling it nowadays). We're not going to see another 200-game winner for a while, and has a strong narrative; cancer wipes out half his rookie year, he comes back to win the World Series the following year, then throws a no-hitter the year after, and later was a part of the 2013 team that won after the Boston Marathon bombing, then goes to Chicago and helps them win.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 12-13-2024, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egri

I think Lester has a stronger Veteran's Committee case (or whatever they're calling it nowadays). We're not going to see another 200-game winner for a while, and has a strong narrative; cancer wipes out half his rookie year, he comes back to win the World Series the following year, then throws a no-hitter the year after, and later was a part of the 2013 team that won after the Boston Marathon bombing, then goes to Chicago and helps them win.

Wainwright also won exactly 200. Not sure he feels like a HOFer to me either, but maybe.

darwinbulldog · #13 12-13-2024, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Buster Posey and Jon Lester are the strongest candidates. In 2026 it is Ryan Braun and Cole Hamels. Jones strongest competition from returning candidates are Carlos Beltan and CC Sabathia if they don't get in this year. I can see two 2 player classes of Jones, Sabathia, Beltran and Posey for 2026 and 2027.

I was thinking more like Luis Tiant and Rick Reuschel, but yeah, I guess Cole Hamels et al. will also be on a 2027 ballot.

Peter_Spaeth · #14 12-13-2024, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I was thinking more like Luis Tiant and Rick Reuschel, but yeah, I guess Cole Hamels et al. will also be on a 2027 ballot.

Tiant may end up being Thurman Munson and Steve Garvey, just destined not to make it? I think Reuschel has a Bobby Grich problem -- yeah, we see your WAR and it easily qualifies you, but we just don't think you were all that great.

rats60 · #15 12-13-2024, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Tiant may end up being Thurman Munson and Steve Garvey, just destined not to make it? I think Reuschel has a Bobby Grich problem -- yeah, we see your WAR and it easily qualifies you, but we just don't think you were all that great.

The problem is there is nothing besides WAR that says he has a case for HOF. 214 wins, 3.37 ERA = 114 ERA+, 26 shutouts, 2015 Ks, 1.275 WHIP, 5.1 K/9, 3x AS, 0.63 Cy Young shares. That is why he received 2 votes on a ballot with Sutton, Niekro, Kaat and John finishing in the top 10 and Tiant 15th.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 12-13-2024, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Andruw Jones received 61% of the vote in the last HOF election. No player who has received 50% of the BBWAA vote has not been elected except for steroid guys. Did Jones use steroids? With only Billy Wagner ahead of him and in his 10th year on the ballot, Jones has 3 more tries. Most likely he is elected in the next 3 years.

To my knowledge Jones was not associated with steroids.

packs · #17 12-13-2024, 11:18 AM

Nellie Fox did eventually get in through the Veteran's Committee but per BR he received 61% in his penultimate year on the ballot and then an incredible 74.7% on his final ballot.

He was then elected by the veterans 12 years later.

Peter_Spaeth · #18 12-13-2024, 12:28 PM

Do we know why Jones just imploded at age 30? Other than his BA being a little on the low side, he had strong offensive numbers to that point to go along with the defense.

D. Bergin · #19 12-13-2024, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do we know why Jones just imploded at age 30? Other than his BA being a little on the low side, he had strong offensive numbers to that point to go along with the defense.

Looks like the Braves saw the writing on the wall. The B.A. was getting worse and the strikeout to walk ratio wasn't getting any better.

Signed with the Dodgers, he showed up 20 lb's overweight to camp, promptly messed up his knee and was never the same again. He wasn't even a valuable defender after that 2007 Age 30 season anymore. He was an OK platoon guy for a couple teams, but that's about it.

He did do ok for a couple seasons in Japan after he left the Yanks, but even they didn't want him playing the outfield. He was basically a 1B/DH guy over there.

Mike D. · #20 12-13-2024, 05:33 PM

I was expecting Dick Allen to make it, but I admit Parker surprised me a bit. Parker is an interesting mix of peak with some longevity (2,700+ hits).

Sad to see Tiant now make it. One thing I realized this time around is that every committee is a completely new group of voters, so there's no "momentum" from vote to vote (like you may see with the BBWAA).

It'll be interesting to see who gets nominated for the Post-1980 ballot next year. Evans and Whitaker? Steroids guys? Kenny Lofton? Kevin Brown? or the same short-career, high peak guys as last time?

The Dave Parker Rookie Card: The 1974 Topps Card Of Baseball�s Latest Hall Of Famer

Dick Allen Elected To The Baseball Hall Of Fame

Tabe · #21 12-14-2024, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do we know why Jones just imploded at age 30? .

He got way out of shape.

btcarfagno · #22 12-16-2024, 11:15 PM

I don't understand why Bob Johnson gets no love for the HOF.

Only player in baseball history (with a career long enough to be eligible for the HOF) to have an OPS+ of 125 or higher in every single year of his career from rookie to final year.

Career OPS+ of 139

27 year old rookie who managed to have over 1200 runs and RBI and 2000 hits.

90 or more RBI in 10 of his 13 major league seasons including 8 of 100 or more (7 in a row).

7x all star probably should have been 9 or 10x based on season totals of years he didn't make it.

Walked more than he struck out in his career, including 10 years of 75+ walks

Led league in left fielder putouts 6 times and assists 8 times.

Is in top 100 hitters all time in many offensive metrics including (for thise who feel this is not a compliment for getting in the HOF, there are now 193 "hitters" in the Hall, so top 100 is pretty much top half of current hall of famers):

OBP 97th
OPS 73rd
Walks 92nd
Adjusted OPS+ 96th
Adjusted batting runs 82nd
Adjusted batting wins 85th
Base out runs added 90th
Situational wins added 79th
Base out wins added 90th
rOBA 65th
RBAT+ 98th
Left fielder putouts 12th
Left fielder assists 6th

JAWS has him as the 20th best Left fielder of all time. Ahead of:

Ralph Kiner
Joe Kelley
Jim Rice
Heinie Manush
Lou Brock

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