The second and third greatest base stealers of all time?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Also, feels and little wrong to leave Lou Brock out of the equation, even if a lot of people think he might have been a little over-rated.

How could anyone think Lou Brock was overrated? He was the MVP of the 1967 World Series and won both the Baseball Digest Player of the Year Award and the Sporting News Player of the Year Award in 1974. He hit .304 at the age of forty and had a lifetime batting average of .293.

Was he that bad a fielder or something?

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by bk400

Ty Cobb may have been a freak of nature in his era....

I know it is unfair to compare across eras....

That's precisely it, and why I think Ty Cobb is a very legitimate candidate for inclusion on a list of the very top base stealers of all time.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

That's precisely it, and why I think Ty Cobb is a very legitimate candidate for inclusion on a list of the very top base stealers of all time.

But if we are selecting the "best ever", we are forced to compare across eras.

Paavo Nurmi is tied (with Carl Lewis) with the most track and field Olympic gold medals -- and he was rightfully a legend of his time -- but he never ran against a Kenyan or an Ethiopian.

If you think that Nurmi is one of the best middle distance runners "ever", then I suppose I understand why you'd go with Ty Cobb for base stealing.

[Casey2296]

Ty Cobb is certainly in the conversation, if the argument is that Cobb was a modern player talent wise playing with a bunch of Rubes for 20 years and wound up with 897 stolen bases (4th all time) without the league trying to do everything they could to stop him, which would include things that aren't allowed in the modern era. I'm just not buying it.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by bk400

But if we are selecting the "best ever", we are forced to compare across eras.

And I am! Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

And I am! Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

I think it was Aparicio who revitalized the stolen base in the late 50s, but even he was putting up numbers in the 50s. Wills' season was insane. It's hard to have a conversation about stolen bases without Cobb, Wills and Brock, IMO.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think it was Aparicio who revitalized the stolen base in the late 50s, but even he was putting up numbers in the 50s.

Yes. Luis Aparicio led the American League in stolen bases for nine straight seasons from 1956 to 1964 with annual totals of 21, 28, 29, 56, 51, 53, 31, 40 and 57. As a result he's one of my favourite players from the era. I have his 1959 Topps card:



I also just bought the 1959 "Keystone Combo" card that he shares with Nellie Fox although I've not received it yet. In addition I have his 1962 Canadian Post Cereal card, his 1962 Shirriff coin, his 1963 Salada coin and his 1964 Topps coins.

[Balticfox]

Here's my 1959 "Keystone Combo" card:

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Yes. Luis Aparicio led the American League in stolen bases for nine straight seasons from 1956 to 1964 with annual totals of 21, 28, 29, 56, 51, 53, 31, 40 and 57. As a result he's one of my favourite players from the era.

Bert Campaneris deserves mention here because he was the player who ended Aparicio's streak of being the American League stolen base leader. Campaneris led the AL with stolen base totals of 51, 52, 55, 62, 42 and 52 for the Athletics in 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1970 and 1972 respectively. His career total of 649 stolen bases over nineteen seasons has him at #14 on the lifetime MLB list.

Like Aparicio, Campaneris also used his speed to stretch hits out into triples. Bert Campaneris had 86 career triples compared to Aparicio's 82 over eighteen seasons.

[KJA]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

And I am! Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

Are we not counting Billy Hamilton since he was pre 1900? He had over 100 a few times.

[Balticfox]

Oh I'm counting Billy Hamilton alright! He had more than 96 stolen bases a whopping five times:

1889 - 111
1891 - 111
1890 - 102
1894 - 100
1895 - 97

Hamilton's 111 stolen base mark was not exceeded until Lou Brock stole 118 in 1974! Hamilton also set the major league record for runs scored in a season with 198 in 1894.

But I was contending that Ty Cobb belongs up there with the "modern" era players so I was moving only forward in time.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by KJA

Are we not counting Billy Hamilton since he was pre 1900? He had over 100 a few times.

Different rules.

By my calculations, and somebody please correct me if I am wrong, Rickey Henderson would have had 166 Stolen Bases in 1982, playing under the same rules as Billy Hamilton.

[D. Bergin]

I thought this was an interesting rule change in 1979.

The criteria for "caught stealing" were fine-tuned in 1979, with a runner being charged with being caught if he is put out while trying to steal, overslides a base (otherwise successfully stolen), or is picked off a base and tries to advance to the next base.[27] It is explicitly not caught stealing to be put out after a wild pitch or passed ball.

This could affect some of the "caught stealing" %'s of different base stealers from different era's. Probably not by a lot, but maybe enough to affect some efficiency ratings slightly.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Different rules.

By my calculations, and somebody please correct me if I am wrong, Rickey Henderson would have had 166 Stolen Bases in 1982, playing under the same rules as Billy Hamilton.

Please explain.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

To me it’s no contest…… Ty Cobb held the record until 1977 with 892…… including an incredible 54 steals of home!!! No one else even comes close!!

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

It should also be mentioned that Ty Cobb led the American League in stolen bases a whopping six times - 1907(49), 1909(76), 1911(83), 1915(96), 1916(68) and 1917(55). Cobb was unquestionably a phenomenal base stealer.

(Not my card.)

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

It should also be mentioned that Ty Cobb led the American League in stolen bases a whopping six times - 1907(49), 1909(76), 1911(83), 1915(96), 1916(68) and 1917955). Cobb was unquestionably a phenomenal base stealer.

(Not my card.)

I would argue we don't have enough data to state he was phenomenal. He was FREQUENT, but we don't know how effective he was.

[Balticfox]

Hmmmm. Admittedly from the statistics we have he was indeed Caught Stealing much of the time. For example in 1915 when he stole 96 bases he was caught 38 times. Therefore I guess I should have said "fabled" rather than "phenomenal".

Given that he led the American League in Stolen Bases six times, his record of 96 Stolen Bases in 1915 remained unbroken for 47 years and his lifetime record of 897 Stolen Bases wasn't exceeded until 1977 which was a whopping 49 years after his retirement, I'd still argue that Ty Cobb belongs right up there with the most legendary base stealers of all time.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

How could anyone think Lou Brock was overrated? He was the MVP of the 1967 World Series and won both the Baseball Digest Player of the Year Award and the Sporting News Player of the Year Award in 1974. He hit .304 at the age of forty and had a lifetime batting average of .293.

Was he that bad a fielder or something?

I never saw him play in person, but analytics don't like him very much. For a non-power guy and leadoff hitter, he had a very respectable batting average, but he struck out waaaay more then he walked.

For perspective he struck out more then Rickey Henderson in about 2100 less plate appearances, while walking almost 1500 less times.

Defensive metrics kind of hate him to. His range factor was very good for most of the 60's, but he either led the league in outfield errors, or was near the top in almost every year he played the outfield. Errors aren't the end all be all when it comes to Outfield play, so I'm guessing he had a weaker arm and extra bases were taken on him, on a regular basis.

Rickey wasn't a great outfielder either, at least from the eye test, but the metrics there favor him much much better, then Lou Brock, and they both played the majority of their careers in Left Field...so there isn't a Center Fielder bias working for either player.

That said, I think Lou Brock is a player you would have loved to have had on your team, one way or another. Whether you think he might have been over-rated, under-rated, or just right.