The second and third greatest base stealers of all time?

KJA · #1 12-31-2024, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balticfox

And I am! Ty Cobb is fourth all-time in stolen bases and only Ricky Henderson and Lou Brock stole more bases since 1900. Moreover Cobb's total of 96 stolen bases in 1915 wasn't exceeded until Maury Wills stole 104 a whopping 47 years later in 1962!

Are we not counting Billy Hamilton since he was pre 1900? He had over 100 a few times.

Balticfox · #2 12-31-2024, 10:20 PM

Oh I'm counting Billy Hamilton alright! He had more than 96 stolen bases a whopping five times:

1889 - 111
1891 - 111
1890 - 102
1894 - 100
1895 - 97

Hamilton's 111 stolen base mark was not exceeded until Lou Brock stole 118 in 1974! Hamilton also set the major league record for runs scored in a season with 198 in 1894.

But I was contending that Ty Cobb belongs up there with the "modern" era players so I was moving only forward in time.

D. Bergin · #3 01-01-2025, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJA

Are we not counting Billy Hamilton since he was pre 1900? He had over 100 a few times.

Different rules.

By my calculations, and somebody please correct me if I am wrong, Rickey Henderson would have had 166 Stolen Bases in 1982, playing under the same rules as Billy Hamilton.

D. Bergin · #4 01-01-2025, 11:08 AM

I thought this was an interesting rule change in 1979.

Quote:

The criteria for "caught stealing" were fine-tuned in 1979, with a runner being charged with being caught if he is put out while trying to steal, overslides a base (otherwise successfully stolen), or is picked off a base and tries to advance to the next base.[27] It is explicitly not caught stealing to be put out after a wild pitch or passed ball.

This could affect some of the "caught stealing" %'s of different base stealers from different era's. Probably not by a lot, but maybe enough to affect some efficiency ratings slightly.

Balticfox · #5 01-01-2025, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Different rules.

By my calculations, and somebody please correct me if I am wrong, Rickey Henderson would have had 166 Stolen Bases in 1982, playing under the same rules as Billy Hamilton.

Please explain.

D. Bergin · #6 01-01-2025, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Please explain.

In Billy Hamilton's era, you were awarded a "stolen base" if you went from 1st to 3rd on a single, 2nd to home on a single, 1st to home on a double.

Another way to explain it...if as a baserunner on base, you took an extra base beyond what the hitter took, that was considered a "stolen base". This rule wasn't changed until after 1897.

Balticfox · #7 01-01-2025, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Another way to explain it...if as a baserunner on base, you took an extra base beyond what the hitter took, that was considered a "stolen base". This rule wasn't changed until after 1897.

I like the initial rule. It's internal mathematical consistency enables every play to be slotted into it's own neat little box. I've always hated all the exceptions to the general rules in baseball.

steve B · #8 01-02-2025, 09:00 AM

While I wouldn't put him in the top three, and maybe not even in the top 5, Ill just put the name out there. A friend of mine really like this player in about 1980. I was surprised looking at his stats.

Cesar Cedeno. 550 stolen bases, and a decent string of seasons with 50+ and 53.1 war
And a sort of expected fall off at age 30 He did lead the league in getting caught a couple times, and his last few years hanging on in the big leagues weren't impressive.

But with the third most between 70 and 79 at least deserves a mention.

Balticfox · #9 01-02-2025, 11:10 AM

Cesar Cedeno certainly caught my attention when he broke into the league. Big stars with Houston were a rare thing in the 1960's and 1970's.

RUKen · #10 01-06-2025, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

In Billy Hamilton's era, you were awarded a "stolen base" if you went from 1st to 3rd on a single, 2nd to home on a single, 1st to home on a double.

Another way to explain it...if as a baserunner on base, you took an extra base beyond what the hitter took, that was considered a "stolen base". This rule wasn't changed until after 1897.

I'm pretty sure that taking an extra base (compared to where the batter stopped) counted as a stolen base only during the seasons 1892-1897. Before that, stolen bases were scored more like modern ones, except that they were credited with a stolen base when there was an obvious fielding error on the play, and also when they over-ran the base and were then put out.

D. Bergin · #11 01-06-2025, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUKen

I'm pretty sure that taking an extra base (compared to where the batter stopped) counted as a stolen base only during the seasons 1892-1897. Before that, stolen bases were scored more like modern ones, except that they were credited with a stolen base when there was an obvious fielding error on the play, and also when they over-ran the base and were then put out.

Yes, you are correct. The rules did fluctuate a bit.

Also, throwing a monkey wrench into this whole thing. For some reason "Caught Stealing" was not a widely kept track of stat until we were further along into the 20 Century.

Ty Cobb appears to have been a wildly inefficient base stealer when you take into account he's missing 10+ seasons of "caught stealing" statistics from his career line.

robw1959 · #12 01-08-2025, 07:12 PM

I'll go with Cobb. Just read the bio on the back of his T205 card and you'll know why.

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