B/S/T Etiquette

[gregndodgers]

As a lawyer who has negotiated multimillion dollar deals and is pretty well versed in contract law, I have to disagree with some of the posts on this thread. If a post is made (such as the one made here) that advertises specific cards for sale and that post includes the material terms of the sale, which besides a description of the item for sale, typically includes the sale price including shipping and handling, and the method of payment, then that is the offer, and the first to accept those terms is the rightful buyer and has, in layman’s terms, “first dibs.” Absent a good reason, an individual cannot simply choose whom to sell to.

Greg

[Peter_Spaeth]

In a BST post, who is the offeree? For an offer to be binding upon acceptance, you need an offeree, as I understand it. Otherwise, like an advertisement, it's an invitation to treat/invitation to bargain. The specificity of the post is not the point.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

As a lawyer who has negotiated multimillion dollar deals and is pretty well versed in contract law, I have to disagree with some of the posts on this thread. If a post is made (such as the one made here) that advertises specific cards for sale and that post includes the material terms of the sale, which besides a description of the item for sale, typically includes the sale price including shipping and handling, and the method of payment, then that is the offer, and the first to accept those terms is the rightful buyer and has, in layman’s terms, “first dibs.” Absent a good reason, an individual cannot simply choose whom to sell to.



Greg

I'll post the case law when I get a chance. I'm going to need to see your citations, because that is most definitely not the general principle of contract law. Only if there is a specific local statute that modifies the common law will that be the case, or if there is a specific term in the listing stating an intent to sell to the first taker. There is no "meeting of the minds" in your example that is required for a contract. Posting a listing to a broad, general audience does not put the seller in privity of contract with everyone who reads it. The buyer must express their intent to contract, and the seller must agree to contract with that specific person. In your example, the seller has never entered into contract with that buyer, and no contract was formed.

[toledo_mudhen]

"eBay sellers have control over who can bid on and buy their items. You can block individual buyers or set buyer requirements based on specific criteria.

If you’ve had an issue with a buyer and don’t want them to purchase or bid on your items, you can add them to your Blocked buyers list. They'll be unable to place bids or buy from you until you remove them from the list."

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

As a lawyer who has negotiated multimillion dollar deals and is pretty well versed in contract law, I have to disagree with some of the posts on this thread. If a post is made (such as the one made here) that advertises specific cards for sale and that post includes the material terms of the sale, which besides a description of the item for sale, typically includes the sale price including shipping and handling, and the method of payment, then that is the offer, and the first to accept those terms is the rightful buyer and has, in layman’s terms, “first dibs.” Absent a good reason, an individual cannot simply choose whom to sell to.

Greg

Here's some of the landmark cases:

Fisher v. Bell (1961) and Partridge v. Crittenden (1968) set forth the longstanding principle that posting or advertising an item for sale is an "invitation to treat" and not an "offer to sell."

The cases you are referring to are Carlill v Carbolic Smoke Ball Co (1893) and All Phases of Services Ltd v Johnson (2014). They suggest that what is usually an invitation to treat can become an offer to sell IF the advertisment clearly indicates and intent to be bound, and the intentions of both parties are clear and agreed upon, demonstrated through the conduct of the parties involved.

So as I said, posting a card for sale, with a price, is a invitation to treat and not an offer UNLESS the listing clearly states that the first person to accept will get the card.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

As a lawyer who has negotiated multimillion dollar deals and is pretty well versed in contract law, I have to disagree with some of the posts on this thread. If a post is made (such as the one made here) that advertises specific cards for sale and that post includes the material terms of the sale, which besides a description of the item for sale, typically includes the sale price including shipping and handling, and the method of payment, then that is the offer, and the first to accept those terms is the rightful buyer and has, in layman’s terms, “first dibs.” Absent a good reason, an individual cannot simply choose whom to sell to.

Greg

Well, I don't know law and am not a lawyer, but that is not what this private forum's rules are. First dibs is almost always the case, but not always. Sellers here can sell to whomever they want to, or don't want to. They can even back out of a deal they said ok to. (as long as they don't make it a habit). Pretty simple.
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.

[ullmandds]

I have been on both sides of this dilemna on the bst. There have been atleast 2-3 occasions where I underpriced cards significantly and they sold quickly...and I honored the prices as it was MY FAULT.

Additionally I recall a time where I won an autographed pete rose kahns weiner card on the auction page here...at a bargain price. The seller attempted to reneg as he was not happy with the selling price. The net54 goonsquad backed me up and the seller was "encouraged" to honor the deal.

50 shades of grey?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I have been on both sides of this dilemna on the bst. There have been atleast 2-3 occasions where I underpriced cards significantly and they sold quickly...and I honored the prices as it was MY FAULT.

Additionally I recall a time where I won an autographed pete rose kahns weiner card on the auction page here...at a bargain price. The seller attempted to reneg as he was not happy with the selling price. The net54 goonsquad backed me up and the seller was "encouraged" to honor the deal.

50 shades of grey?

Good. An auction is completely different. If anyone backs out of a sale of an auction item here they, at least, won't be able to use the BST areas any longer, if not banned altogether.

[nolemmings]

Hmm,
Seems like there's little to no reason for listing something on B/S/T with a "listening to offers" request when you can easily put whatever number you want and then just change your mind or delay to see if something better comes along. Then again I guess you can do that anyway, even if you start with a defined price. Makes me wonder what is meant by the term etiquette as applied to the net54 "marketplace".

[gregndodgers]

As a lawyer, I stand by my post 100%. As a collector, I stand by Leon 100%.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

As a lawyer, I stand by my post 100%. As a collector, I stand by Leon 100%.

As a lawyer, I stand by mine 100%. There is no court that will find a post of a card for sale with a price and how payment is accepted, that doesn't express an intent to be bound to the first to accept the offer, constitutes a binding offer on the part of the seller. I provided you the most significant cases on the issue, including those that support the proposition that an invitation to treat can become an offer under the right circumstances. And none of them support your claim. Like I said, provide a case that provides otherwise. Those cases are very fact specific. And these aren't those facts.

[JimC]

Originally Posted by Leon

Well, I don't know law and am not a lawyer, but that is not what this private forum's rules are. First dibs is almost always the case, but not always. Sellers here can sell to whomever they want to, or don't want to. They can even back out of a deal they said ok to. (as long as they don't make it a habit). Pretty simple.
.
.

Leon:

Can buyers also back out of a deal they agreed to?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by JimC

Leon:

Can buyers also back out of a deal they agreed to?

Yes, at Net54baseball they can do it 1 time, as stated above. In over 20 yrs I don't remember it happening more than maybe a few times in many thousands of transactions (that I know about). So, it's sort of moot but yeah, as I said above, I think everyone gets 1 grace situation where they get buyers or sellers remorse. BUT, I am not a lawyer and this only pertains to the rules on this forum. If there is some law that overrides this, then I guess anyone can sue anyone in the US...I think almost all of us wish, at one time or another, we didn't do a deal we just did. I think it's nice to know you can make a mistake and not be banned. I would like to know about it and think I hear about most of that kind of stuff. A few members have been banned for not following through in situations but those were one-offs.
IF it hasn't happened, consider yourself lucky. And I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to call off a deal. It's not good but not the end of the world.

That said, I keep my word on all of my deals, but I do remember a situation where someone bought something off of my website. It hadn't been updated in a long time and 1 card was way, way off. So yeah, I called that one off as I wasn't going to eat about $7000....

[gunboat82]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

As a lawyer who has negotiated multimillion dollar deals and is pretty well versed in contract law, I have to disagree with some of the posts on this thread. If a post is made (such as the one made here) that advertises specific cards for sale and that post includes the material terms of the sale, which besides a description of the item for sale, typically includes the sale price including shipping and handling, and the method of payment, then that is the offer, and the first to accept those terms is the rightful buyer and has, in layman’s terms, “first dibs.” Absent a good reason, an individual cannot simply choose whom to sell to.

Greg

This post is contrary to the Uniform Commercial Code and its distinction between a binding sales contract and an "invitation to offer."

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

As a lawyer who has negotiated multimillion dollar deals and is pretty well versed in contract law, I have to disagree with some of the posts on this thread. If a post is made (such as the one made here) that advertises specific cards for sale and that post includes the material terms of the sale, which besides a description of the item for sale, typically includes the sale price including shipping and handling, and the method of payment, then that is the offer, and the first to accept those terms is the rightful buyer and has, in layman’s terms, “first dibs.” Absent a good reason, an individual cannot simply choose whom to sell to.

Greg

Why is it then, that thousands upon thousands of real estate transactions settle at amounts greater than the listing price? I'm sure many of them include the material terms of sale (as-is, up-front deposit, balance at close, buyer pays normal buying fees, title transfer, etc.)

Some real estate transactions involve millions of dollars. Why don't we hear of widespread lawsuits, and why would the transaction price ever be higher than the list price? According to you, first buyer to offer full ask gets it, period. No need for him to go above that figure, and futile for a subsequent offer.

Or does the law trteat real estate as a separate animal (and if so, why?)

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Why is it then, that thousands upon thousands of real estate transactions settle at amounts greater than the listing price? I'm sure many of them include the material terms of sale (as-is, up-front deposit, balance at close, buyer pays normal buying fees, title transfer, etc.)



Some real estate transactions involve millions of dollars. Why don't we hear of widespread lawsuits, and why would the transaction price ever be higher than the list price? According to you, first buyer to offer full ask gets it, period. No need for him to go above that figure, and futile for a subsequent offer.



Or does the law trteat real estate as a separate animal (and if so, why?)

Because he doesn't understand the difference between including terms of sale in your ad and including terms clearly evidencing an intent to be bound by the sales listing. Those are vastly different things.

[gregndodgers]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Why is it then, that thousands upon thousands of real estate transactions settle at amounts greater than the listing price? I'm sure many of them include the material terms of sale (as-is, up-front deposit, balance at close, buyer pays normal buying fees, title transfer, etc.)

Some real estate transactions involve millions of dollars. Why don't we hear of widespread lawsuits, and why would the transaction price ever be higher than the list price? According to you, first buyer to offer full ask gets it, period. No need for him to go above that figure, and futile for a subsequent offer.

Or does the law trteat real estate as a separate animal (and if so, why?)

For a multitude of reasons, one cannot compare the contractual process, including the legal rights and duties, of selling a home to selling a baseball card. Obviously, a home and any sale of a home are much more complex transactions. Hence, an MLS listing is generally not an offer but information about a home that is treated as an invitation to make an offer.

[gregndodgers]

Look, you guys can do whatever you like. I’m simply offering my legal opinion that you can accept or not. LoL.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

Look, you guys can do whatever you like. I’m simply offering my legal opinion that you can accept or not. LoL.

Interesting how different your legal opinion is from another lawyer also posting in this thread.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Interesting how different your legal opinion is from another lawyer also posting in this thread.

And how his hasn't been supported by any statutes or case law.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

And how his hasn't been supported by any statutes or case law.

Another reason I think your position might have more validity than his is the concept of time. For instance, let's say someone offers a Dick Allen rookie card at a certain price. It goes unsold for a few days, then he's elected to the Hall of Fame, and suddenly several offers come in. Would the seller be compelled to sell at his listed (pre HOF) price?

When I was a kid, I got a coin collector magazine. One of the ads offered silver Franklin half dollars at a certain price. I ordered 10 of them, but had my check returned with a note saying the price had gone up. Again, that scenario seems to fit with your position rather than that of the other lawyer.

Something can be offered for sale at a stated price, but it isn't a contract until both parties agree it's a mutually agreed upon deal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

And how his hasn't been supported by any statutes or case law.

There are of course countless issues where courts have reached different conclusions, or different jurisdictions have different rules, but this isn't one of them, it's pretty much Contracts 101.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by gregndodgers

If a post is made (such as the one made here) that advertises specific cards for sale and that post includes the material terms of the sale, which besides a description of the item for sale, typically includes the sale price including shipping and handling, and the method of payment, then that is the offer, and the first to accept those terms is the rightful buyer and has, in layman’s terms, “first dibs.” Absent a good reason, an individual cannot simply choose whom to sell to.

Greg

Hey look! I can do it to.

This statement is so far off based it isn't funny. It has no basis in contract law and is false. Material terms being included in a sales listing does not turn it into an offer. It must also include a clear statement of intent to be bound.