Does PSA give favoritism to certain dealers/customers?

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Yep. The notion began with their first graded card.

Trent King

Every thread needs a card

[Hankphenom]

I would hope the TPGs have a "blind" system in place whereby the graders have no other information other than the card in front of them. I might be dreaming, but it would crazy for it to be any other way, both from an ethical and a business standpoint, it seems to me.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I would hope the TPGs have a "blind" system in place whereby the graders have no other information other than the card in front of them. I might be dreaming, but it would crazy for it to be any other way, both from an ethical and a business standpoint, it seems to me.

Well they that is the myth that was spun since day 1...that grading is anonymous. Not even close from what I have been told by people who are more involved in the hobby than I am and for much longer. The other myth is that 3 graders see each card. Maybe a T206 Wagner has 3 sets of eyes but a 1968 Topps Drysdale has at best one full sets of eyes for 10 seconds.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Well they that is the myth that was spun since day 1...that grading is anonymous. Not even close from what I have been told by people who are more involved in the hobby than I am and for much longer. The other myth is that 3 graders see each card. Maybe a T206 Wagner has 3 sets of eyes but a 1968 Topps Drysdale has at best one full sets of eyes for 10 seconds.

I've always thought there could be merit in the common complaint that they don't do a great job at what they do, i.e., inexperienced, overworked graders and the like. I don't think KFC makes very good fried chicken, either, but they're still the biggest, right? But I do have a hard time seeing what would be the advantage, especially of PSA, the proverbial 800-lb gorilla in the hobby, in overgrading even for the biggest clients. Seems to me they would just have too much to lose if that was ever proven to be the case, which I don't think has happened yet, has it? And with the volume they handle, I don't know how they could make that kind of bias work without gumming up the process and creating even more delays in an organization that is already constantly "in the weeds," as we say in the bar business when you just can't keep up. I'd like to have more than hearsay to go by for such a serious accusation.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I've always thought there could be merit in the common complaint that they don't do a great job at what they do, i.e., inexperienced, overworked graders and the like. I don't think KFC makes very good fried chicken, either, but they're still the biggest, right? But I do have a hard time seeing what would be the advantage, especially of PSA, the proverbial 800-lb gorilla in the hobby, in overgrading even for the biggest clients. Seems to me they would just have too much to lose if that was ever proven to be the case, which I don't think has happened yet, has it? And with the volume they handle, I don't know how they could make that kind of bias work without gumming up the process and creating even more delays in an organization that is already constantly "in the weeds," as we say in the bar business when you just can't keep up. I'd like to have more than hearsay to go by for such a serious accusation.

I was simply speaking to the concern you had about anonymity not what PSA does with the transparency of that anonymity. PSA is giving an opinion and I think it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to prove their opinion is or that process is fraudulent absent people on the inside testifying. Whenever this topic is brought up you have people on this forum who post their observations that certain companies seemed to get more favorable results. Maybe it is nothing more than if a card is between a 7 and an 8 they give the favored submitter the 8 while the rest of us would get the 7?

I don't think it is uncommon in the world today that a large client would get better service than a smaller client.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I don't think it is uncommon in the world today that a large client would get better service than a smaller client.

Oh, better service, as in faster turnaround time and the like, for sure for the bigger clients. Better grades, though? I just can't see a PSA honcho telling any grader or group of graders about a particular submission or collection, "these guys are our friends" (wink wink, nod nod) or the like. Call me naive, but I can't imagine it for a number of reasons. OK, you say, it's nothing ever said, it just goes without saying, as in the corporate culture, etc., but as I said before it would be too easy for that to become widely known and all credibility is lost along with millions of dollars worth of business. Now I hear you saying that it IS widely known, that's why we're discussing it, but I want to see actual evidence of some kind, be it studies of some kind, testimony from employees, etc., before I'd be willing to accept what I view so far as merely anecdotal disparagement based on nothing in particular.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Oh, better service, as in faster turnaround time and the like, for sure for the bigger clients. Better grades, though? I just can't see a PSA honcho telling any grader or group of graders about a particular submission or collection, "these guys are our friends" (wink wink, nod nod) or the like. Call me naive, but I can't imagine it for a number of reasons. OK, you say, it's nothing ever said, it just goes without saying, as in the corporate culture, etc., but as I said before it would be too easy for that to become widely known and all credibility is lost along with millions of dollars worth of business. Now I hear you saying that it IS widely known, that's why we're discussing it, but I want to see actual evidence of some kind, be it studies of some kind, testimony from employees, etc., before I'd be willing to accept what I view so far as merely anecdotal disparagement based on nothing in particular.

I am not here to convince you or tell you what you should think or believe. You are entitled to your opinion as each of us are and I do understand your skepticism. I just do not agree that it would be hard to pull off favoritism in the grading room. Here is one way it could go down: Favorite Dealer #1 gets back a submission, does not like grades, contacts his person at PSA. That person tells Favorite Dealer #1, just send those back and I will have the graders take another look.

In the short time I have been on here I have read numerous threads that refer to PSA invitationals and what goes on at them and who gets invited, etc. I think the culture of grading has an element of corruption and not all submissions are treated equally. Again this is from talking with many presumably seasoned dealers, some who have auction houses and not just guys who are bent because their 8s are usually 7s.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I've always thought there could be merit in the common complaint that they don't do a great job at what they do, i.e., inexperienced, overworked graders and the like. I don't think KFC makes very good fried chicken, either, but they're still the biggest, right? But I do have a hard time seeing what would be the advantage, especially of PSA, the proverbial 800-lb gorilla in the hobby, in overgrading even for the biggest clients. Seems to me they would just have too much to lose if that was ever proven to be the case, which I don't think has happened yet, has it? And with the volume they handle, I don't know how they could make that kind of bias work without gumming up the process and creating even more delays in an organization that is already constantly "in the weeds," as we say in the bar business when you just can't keep up. I'd like to have more than hearsay to go by for such a serious accusation.

Maybe it is part of the reason for the delays they have in processing submissions?

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by jayshum

Maybe it is part of the reason for the delays they have in processing submissions?

Maybe, but I just don't see how that kind of interference in the process would work, for one thing, and what PSA would have to gain by it, for another. Everybody uses them now, as it is, why would they take a chance on that kind of widespread fraud that would damage their reputation or worse?

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Everybody uses them now, as it is, why would they take a chance on that kind of widespread fraud that would damage their reputation or worse?

Plenty around here who are SGC diehards and refuse to send a penny to PSA, notwithstanding they are both owned by the same parent company.

And some of this behavior might have been more prevalent in the past, rather than ongoing today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Maybe, but I just don't see how that kind of interference in the process would work, for one thing, and what PSA would have to gain by it, for another. Everybody uses them now, as it is, why would they take a chance on that kind of widespread fraud that would damage their reputation or worse?

Buy 100 PSA 10s from 4SC. Resubmit them raw. See how many 10s you get. It won't be more than a handful.

Read the Blowout threads about the staggering number of altered cards graded for certain substantial dealers.

I have known, for better or worse, dealers willing to tell me things and there is no doubt at all that who submits, or asks for a review, matters. You can choose to believe what you want or demand any standard of proof, but this is how it works.

PSA grew on the backs of dealers and auction houses, not individual collectors. There was every motive in the world to make those people happy.

[toledo_mudhen]

So on the Gretzgy Wagner - It sounds like the entire world believes that it is not a legitimate "8"

Is that correct?

To me - a grade of 8 on that card is not a stretch - What am I missing?

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

So on the Gretzgy Wagner - It sounds like the entire world believes that it is not a legitimate "8"

Is that correct?

To me - a grade of 8 on that card is not a stretch - What am I missing?

I think the issue with that card in particular is that it is trimmed, and was known to be trimmed when PSA graded it.

[luciobar1980]

It's such a shame that anyone would trim that card. Unfathomable.

And it's unreal that the VERY FIRST CARD PSA GRADED was basically a scam, of many scams to come, and people still submit to them. Ugh.

[toledo_mudhen]

AHHHH - OK - can see that happening on it.....

If I had to guess - I would say trimmed top and top corners?

[Eric72]

Does PSA give favoritism to certain dealers/customers? In theory, no. However, as a very wise man once said:

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

[G1911]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

AHHHH - OK - can see that happening on it.....

If I had to guess - I would say trimmed top and top corners?

The card was handcut from a “sheet” by which people probably meant a strip or a panel of a sheet, and then later trimmed again. All sides are probably trimmed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

The card was handcut from a “sheet” by which people probably meant a strip or a panel of a sheet, and then later trimmed again. All sides are probably trimmed.

I don't recall if Bill ever gave specifics about whether he cut all the edges or not. But again, for the 100th time, from my perspective it was already an AUTH when he did so because it was sheet cut to begin with.

[sacentaur]

Originally Posted by toledo_mudhen

So on the Gretzgy Wagner - It sounds like the entire world believes that it is not a legitimate "8"

Is that correct?

To me - a grade of 8 on that card is not a stretch - What am I missing?

The PSA grader for that Wagner was Bill Hughes, an individual who was mistrusted by a large portion of the comic book collecting hobby (Hughes was a vintage comic book dealer). I believe he later admitted that he knew the card had been trimmed.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

Every thread needs a card

Bravo...that was perfect!