Does PSA give favoritism to certain dealers/customers?

Lorewalker · #1 05-21-2025, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I would hope the TPGs have a "blind" system in place whereby the graders have no other information other than the card in front of them. I might be dreaming, but it would crazy for it to be any other way, both from an ethical and a business standpoint, it seems to me.

Well they that is the myth that was spun since day 1...that grading is anonymous. Not even close from what I have been told by people who are more involved in the hobby than I am and for much longer. The other myth is that 3 graders see each card. Maybe a T206 Wagner has 3 sets of eyes but a 1968 Topps Drysdale has at best one full sets of eyes for 10 seconds.

Hankphenom · #2 05-21-2025, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Well they that is the myth that was spun since day 1...that grading is anonymous. Not even close from what I have been told by people who are more involved in the hobby than I am and for much longer. The other myth is that 3 graders see each card. Maybe a T206 Wagner has 3 sets of eyes but a 1968 Topps Drysdale has at best one full sets of eyes for 10 seconds.

I've always thought there could be merit in the common complaint that they don't do a great job at what they do, i.e., inexperienced, overworked graders and the like. I don't think KFC makes very good fried chicken, either, but they're still the biggest, right? But I do have a hard time seeing what would be the advantage, especially of PSA, the proverbial 800-lb gorilla in the hobby, in overgrading even for the biggest clients. Seems to me they would just have too much to lose if that was ever proven to be the case, which I don't think has happened yet, has it? And with the volume they handle, I don't know how they could make that kind of bias work without gumming up the process and creating even more delays in an organization that is already constantly "in the weeds," as we say in the bar business when you just can't keep up. I'd like to have more than hearsay to go by for such a serious accusation.

Lorewalker · #3 05-22-2025, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I've always thought there could be merit in the common complaint that they don't do a great job at what they do, i.e., inexperienced, overworked graders and the like. I don't think KFC makes very good fried chicken, either, but they're still the biggest, right? But I do have a hard time seeing what would be the advantage, especially of PSA, the proverbial 800-lb gorilla in the hobby, in overgrading even for the biggest clients. Seems to me they would just have too much to lose if that was ever proven to be the case, which I don't think has happened yet, has it? And with the volume they handle, I don't know how they could make that kind of bias work without gumming up the process and creating even more delays in an organization that is already constantly "in the weeds," as we say in the bar business when you just can't keep up. I'd like to have more than hearsay to go by for such a serious accusation.

I was simply speaking to the concern you had about anonymity not what PSA does with the transparency of that anonymity. PSA is giving an opinion and I think it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to prove their opinion is or that process is fraudulent absent people on the inside testifying. Whenever this topic is brought up you have people on this forum who post their observations that certain companies seemed to get more favorable results. Maybe it is nothing more than if a card is between a 7 and an 8 they give the favored submitter the 8 while the rest of us would get the 7?

I don't think it is uncommon in the world today that a large client would get better service than a smaller client.

Hankphenom · #4 05-22-2025, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I don't think it is uncommon in the world today that a large client would get better service than a smaller client.

Oh, better service, as in faster turnaround time and the like, for sure for the bigger clients. Better grades, though? I just can't see a PSA honcho telling any grader or group of graders about a particular submission or collection, "these guys are our friends" (wink wink, nod nod) or the like. Call me naive, but I can't imagine it for a number of reasons. OK, you say, it's nothing ever said, it just goes without saying, as in the corporate culture, etc., but as I said before it would be too easy for that to become widely known and all credibility is lost along with millions of dollars worth of business. Now I hear you saying that it IS widely known, that's why we're discussing it, but I want to see actual evidence of some kind, be it studies of some kind, testimony from employees, etc., before I'd be willing to accept what I view so far as merely anecdotal disparagement based on nothing in particular.

Lorewalker · #5 05-22-2025, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Oh, better service, as in faster turnaround time and the like, for sure for the bigger clients. Better grades, though? I just can't see a PSA honcho telling any grader or group of graders about a particular submission or collection, "these guys are our friends" (wink wink, nod nod) or the like. Call me naive, but I can't imagine it for a number of reasons. OK, you say, it's nothing ever said, it just goes without saying, as in the corporate culture, etc., but as I said before it would be too easy for that to become widely known and all credibility is lost along with millions of dollars worth of business. Now I hear you saying that it IS widely known, that's why we're discussing it, but I want to see actual evidence of some kind, be it studies of some kind, testimony from employees, etc., before I'd be willing to accept what I view so far as merely anecdotal disparagement based on nothing in particular.

I am not here to convince you or tell you what you should think or believe. You are entitled to your opinion as each of us are and I do understand your skepticism. I just do not agree that it would be hard to pull off favoritism in the grading room. Here is one way it could go down: Favorite Dealer #1 gets back a submission, does not like grades, contacts his person at PSA. That person tells Favorite Dealer #1, just send those back and I will have the graders take another look.

In the short time I have been on here I have read numerous threads that refer to PSA invitationals and what goes on at them and who gets invited, etc. I think the culture of grading has an element of corruption and not all submissions are treated equally. Again this is from talking with many presumably seasoned dealers, some who have auction houses and not just guys who are bent because their 8s are usually 7s.

Fandom0610 · #6 05-22-2025, 10:41 AM

They 1000% do and its been going on for years

Hankphenom · #7 05-22-2025, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fandom0610

They 1000% do and its been going on for years

Wow, 1000%! There must be lots of proof, then.

steve B · #8 05-22-2025, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I am not here to convince you or tell you what you should think or believe. You are entitled to your opinion as each of us are and I do understand your skepticism. I just do not agree that it would be hard to pull off favoritism in the grading room. Here is one way it could go down: Favorite Dealer #1 gets back a submission, does not like grades, contacts his person at PSA. That person tells Favorite Dealer #1, just send those back and I will have the graders take another look.

In the short time I have been on here I have read numerous threads that refer to PSA invitationals and what goes on at them and who gets invited, etc. I think the culture of grading has an element of corruption and not all submissions are treated equally. Again this is from talking with many presumably seasoned dealers, some who have auction houses and not just guys who are bent because their 8s are usually 7s.

It could be much simpler, and still technically conform to blindness.
Grader A, B and C... All consistent. Except grader B is consistently lenient normally being a grade or two higher than the others.

Big customer is sending in a big order, office wants to expedite to make the big customer happy. So they know the tracking number and when it's delivered the pull it out and log it specially, jumping the line.

Then walk it over the grader B and ask him to do this order right away.

Quick service and better than average grades, and grader B has no idea whose card they were.

Hankphenom · #9 05-22-2025, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

I am not here to convince you or tell you what you should think or believe. You are entitled to your opinion as each of us are and I do understand your skepticism. I just do not agree that it would be hard to pull off favoritism in the grading room. Here is one way it could go down: Favorite Dealer #1 gets back a submission, does not like grades, contacts his person at PSA.That person tells Favorite Dealer #1, just send those back and I will have the graders take another look. In the short time I have been on here I have read numerous threads that refer to PSA invitationals and what goes on at them and who gets invited, etc. I think the culture of grading has an element of corruption and not all submissions are treated equally. Again this is from talking with many presumably seasoned dealers, some who have auction houses and not just guys who are bent because their 8s are usually 7s.

Fair enough, and here's my final thoughts about all this: on your first point, what you've left out is where the submitter's person at the TPG tells the original grader, or a different grader, what grades the submitter would be happy with for what cards, or even to bump them all up a notch or two, or even that the submitter wasn't happy, leaving it to the imagination of the grader as to how far to go to please said submitter. I just can't see that happening, for all the reasons I have laid out before. As to your experiences listening to the complaints of those convinced they don't get the love for their submissions as the AHs, whales, etc., I have no rebuttal that other than the same vague feeling I get when I take my 2007 Highlander into the dealership for service that I might not be getting quite the same level of care and attention as the guy with his brand new Sequoia. No proof, mind you, just a feeling, and don't get me wrong, I love both my Highlander and my dealer.

Lorewalker · #10 05-22-2025, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Fair enough, and here's my final thoughts about all this: on your first point, what you've left out is where the submitter's person at the TPG tells the original grader, or a different grader, what grades the submitter would be happy with for what cards, or even to bump them all up a notch or two, or even that the submitter wasn't happy, leaving it to the imagination of the grader as to how far to go to please said submitter. I just can't see that happening, for all the reasons I have laid out before. As to your experiences listening to the complaints of those convinced they don't get the love for their submissions as the AHs, whales, etc., I have no rebuttal that other than the same vague feeling I get when I take my 2007 Highlander into the dealership for service that I might not be getting quite the same level of care and attention as the guy with his brand new Sequoia. No proof, mind you, just a feeling, and don't get me wrong, I love both my Highlander and my dealer.

Well I know for a fact that my car dealership gives much better service to their entertainer clientele than I get because I have gotten friendly with a few of the employees since I keep leasing cars from them and they like to share stories with me about how high maintenance these clients are. I think it goes without saying that bigger clients get much better service. In the grading world it is clear service does not just mean cheaper grading fees and faster turnaround time.

jayshum · #11 05-22-2025, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I've always thought there could be merit in the common complaint that they don't do a great job at what they do, i.e., inexperienced, overworked graders and the like. I don't think KFC makes very good fried chicken, either, but they're still the biggest, right? But I do have a hard time seeing what would be the advantage, especially of PSA, the proverbial 800-lb gorilla in the hobby, in overgrading even for the biggest clients. Seems to me they would just have too much to lose if that was ever proven to be the case, which I don't think has happened yet, has it? And with the volume they handle, I don't know how they could make that kind of bias work without gumming up the process and creating even more delays in an organization that is already constantly "in the weeds," as we say in the bar business when you just can't keep up. I'd like to have more than hearsay to go by for such a serious accusation.

Maybe it is part of the reason for the delays they have in processing submissions?

Hankphenom · #12 05-22-2025, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayshum

Maybe it is part of the reason for the delays they have in processing submissions?

Maybe, but I just don't see how that kind of interference in the process would work, for one thing, and what PSA would have to gain by it, for another. Everybody uses them now, as it is, why would they take a chance on that kind of widespread fraud that would damage their reputation or worse?

raulus · #13 05-22-2025, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Everybody uses them now, as it is, why would they take a chance on that kind of widespread fraud that would damage their reputation or worse?

Plenty around here who are SGC diehards and refuse to send a penny to PSA, notwithstanding they are both owned by the same parent company.

And some of this behavior might have been more prevalent in the past, rather than ongoing today.

Peter_Spaeth · #14 05-22-2025, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Maybe, but I just don't see how that kind of interference in the process would work, for one thing, and what PSA would have to gain by it, for another. Everybody uses them now, as it is, why would they take a chance on that kind of widespread fraud that would damage their reputation or worse?

Buy 100 PSA 10s from 4SC. Resubmit them raw. See how many 10s you get. It won't be more than a handful.

Read the Blowout threads about the staggering number of altered cards graded for certain substantial dealers.

I have known, for better or worse, dealers willing to tell me things and there is no doubt at all that who submits, or asks for a review, matters. You can choose to believe what you want or demand any standard of proof, but this is how it works.

PSA grew on the backs of dealers and auction houses, not individual collectors. There was every motive in the world to make those people happy.

raulus · #15 05-22-2025, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Buy 100 PSA 10s from 4SC. Resubmit them raw. See how many 10s you get. It won't be more than a handful.

Totally get this. Do you think the results would be different for PSA 10s from 4SC versus PSA 10s from some randos off the street?

I could be wrong (it's happened before), but it seems like the results would be similar, which is more an indictment of the consistency in the grading process, rather than a clear and obvious indication that 4SC is getting preferential treatment.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 05-22-2025, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raulus

Totally get this. Do you think the results would be different for PSA 10s from 4SC versus PSA 10s from some randos off the street?

I could be wrong (it's happened before), but it seems like the results would be similar, which is more an indictment of the consistency in the grading process, rather than a clear and obvious indication that 4SC is getting preferential treatment.

The better question is, if you and 4SC submitted the same 100 raw cards, would the results differ? And don't mean to single them out, there are similarly situated sellers. Have you ever looked at their listings and recreated the subs? Do that and tell me what you think. I am not saying the cards don't deserve it, but as we all know the difference between a 9 and a 10 can be arbitrary.

If you were a business dependent on submissions, would you not make sure your biggest most important customers were happy? Of course you would.

Hankphenom · #17 05-22-2025, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Buy 100 PSA 10s from 4SC. Resubmit them raw. See how many 10s you get. It won't be more than a handful. Read the Blowout threads about the staggering number of altered cards graded for certain substantial dealers. I have known, for better or worse, dealers willing to tell me things and there is no doubt at all that who submits, or asks for a review, matters. You can choose to believe what you want or demand any standard of proof, but this is how it works. PSA grew on the backs of dealers and auction houses, not individual collectors. There was every motive in the world to make those people happy.

I guess, except for the fact that all of this is fraud, pure and simple. Have you contacted the FBI and Operation Bullpen? I hope so, and I hope the perps go to jail to set an example arid rid the hobby of this kind of illegal behavior forever.

Peter_Spaeth · #18 05-22-2025, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I guess, except for the fact that all of this is fraud, pure and simple. Have you contacted the FBI and Operation Bullpen? I hope so, and I hope the perps go to jail to set an example arid rid the hobby of this kind of illegal behavior forever.

Don't know where you've been my friend, but there was a years long investigation by the FBI. It was discussed on this forum ad nauseum.

Hankphenom · #19 05-22-2025, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

PSA grew on the backs of dealers and auction houses, not individual collectors. There was every motive in the world to make those people happy.

There are some logical problems with this, mostly that there are probably fifteen AHs and fifty dealers who submit thousands of cards annually for their auctions or sales. Since all of them do the same volume of business with the TPGs as the others, more or less, why would any of them get preference over the others? And since they all watch each other's auctions like hawks, it would be a very short time before the "losers" in this competition to corrupt the TPGs were complaining vociferously about their status, or lack thereof, in this game, or even worse, switching TPGs or going to the authorities with their complaints. And you only talk about the AHs and dealers, what about collectors--a substantial segment of the TPG's business, no doubt, who see the grades in catalogs and at shows and realize they're getting the short end of the stick? How do you think they must feel, and are they just going to sit back and take it? It just all seems too implausible to me. As I've said before, I want to see some proof.

Peter_Spaeth · #20 05-22-2025, 06:19 PM

I don't have the time, energy, or motivation to reproduce all the threads from Blowout identifying altered cards and their sources, all the analyses of submissions they did, or to more importantly to reconstruct all the countless conversations I've had over the course of decades that inform my views on this subject. The question was posed, and I offered my views, which apparently many others share. You are free to believe what you want and to do whatever burden of proof thing you wish.

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