1989 Fleer Bill Ripken White Box

[jacksoncoupage]

Anyone have photos of these?

Just reread my 1990 Gilkeson Guide and saw a xerox'd page of a write-up he did at the time which lists a "white box" version. Article is a poor quality xerox but he includes an image of what could be the white box version('h'). This led to me wondering why I have not seen or even heard much over the decades about this.

Do they exist? Are they likely aftermaket like the whiteout/scribbles?

[jacksoncoupage]

minuscule majuscule

[bnorth]

I use the Lenny rule, if I never seen Lenny selling it I consider it something someone faked/altered when it comes to the Ripken card.

Like you I remember the article on the white box but I have never actually seen one. What do you mean by aftermarket? I have never seen a whiteout that I believe someone didn't make at home but as far as I know all the scribble versions are 100% factory printed.

I am far from an 89 Fleer error/variation expert but I have owned a couple.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I use the Lenny rule, if I never seen Lenny selling it I consider it something someone faked/altered when it comes to the Ripken card.

Like you I remember the article on the white box but I have never actually seen one. What do you mean by aftermarket? I have never seen a whiteout that I believe someone didn't make at home but as far as I know all the scribble versions are 100% factory printed.

I am far from an 89 Fleer error/variation expert but I have owned a couple.

It seems to me that the language used in describing various whiteout corrections, back then and now, refers to Fleer employees hand-editing the bat knobs on the production line. I've never held a whiteout variation but I've followed dialog about the Ripkens for a few decades. Its always been odd to me that nobody since the hyperfocus on this card of the last 20 years has ever written an in depth description of the whiteout area: ie, is it the same surface gloss/texture as the rest of the card. I'm sure you have seen all the strange and varying white shapes that have popped up on ebay over the years and they are hardly consistent. This leads me to believe that any "white" was applied to either fully printed FF or Box (or Scribble) versions, in the factory or otherwise.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

It seems to me that the language used in describing various whiteout corrections, back then and now, refers to Fleer employees hand-editing the bat knobs on the production line. I've never held a whiteout variation but I've followed dialog about the Ripkens for a few decades. Its always been odd to me that nobody since the hyperfocus on this card of the last 20 years has ever written an in depth description of the whiteout area: ie, is it the same surface gloss/texture as the rest of the card. I'm sure you have seen all the strange and varying white shapes that have popped up on ebay over the years and they are hardly consistent. This leads me to believe that any "white" was applied to either fully printed FF or Box (or Scribble) versions, in the factory or otherwise.

Most of them are BB cards because they are cheaper for the guy at home making them. If I can hold it in hand I can pretty much tell you how the person made them. I have a stack of them made many different ways I have purchased over the years and I highly doubt a single one left Fleer that way.

I have seen unopened packs with even the silly rare versions showing. I have never seen anything with a whiteout version showing. I have opened a ton of 89 Fleer and know many others who have also opened many many cases of it and nobody I know has ever personally found one.

I do have one real whiteout story but it was really whiteout over a FF version. My younger brother pulled it out of a pack when we opened some wax boxes back in the day. I seen him pull it and scratch the whiteout off the card. Other than that I pretty much call BS on all whiteouts.

All the scribble versions can easily be explained with how printing works

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Most of them are BB cards because they are cheaper for the guy at home making them. If I can hold it in hand I can pretty much tell you how the person made them. I have a stack of them made many different ways I have purchased over the years and I highly doubt a single one left Fleer that way.

I have seen unopened packs with even the silly rare versions showing. I have never seen anything with a whiteout version showing. I have opened a ton of 89 Fleer and know many others who have also opened many many cases of it and nobody I know has ever personally found one.

I do have one real whiteout story but it was really whiteout over a FF version. My younger brother pulled it out of a pack when we opened some wax boxes back in the day. I seen him pull it and scratch the whiteout off the card. Other than that I pretty much call BS on all whiteouts.

All the scribble versions can easily be explained with how printing works

I guess this is what confuses me still. Aside from the fact that whiteout variations can be faked easily, are the ones pulled from packs, like the one your younger brother pulled, other versions that Fleer workers applied whiteout or other substance over the bat knob - OR - are some white versions printed on the card (scribble for example)? Or is it a mix of both? Most hobby write-ups at the time refer to it as something Fleer's people did in the factory, which seems very odd to me and something PSA would never slab.

More importantly, I am very interested in what Gilkeson was referring to as a 'white box' version, which he describes in the article as the same as the black box version but white. I have yet to see a copy of this offered for sale and have not seen it mentioned outside his write-up ca. 1989.

[jp1216]

Oh boy. Great topic. Time to put the coffee down and type:

My opinion has always been - 'Whiteout' or 'White Box' etc cards are all Post Production creations. Without question, some/many came from inside Fleer. Some were even inserted into packs but most were backdoored by employees.

These are not to be confused with the authentic White Scribble version!

White Box, White Blob, White smudge, White line, White Stripe - there are lots. Believe it or not - many of these came from within Fleer, but are all Post Production creations. Why? I know Fleer offered 'replacement' cards through the mail for those that found the FF too offensive to own. What were these replacements? I've heard anything from Whiteouts (by employees), to standard Black Box (real) versions to even Paper Hole Punched cards. Fact is - Fleer people did 'create' these but they are nothing more that Post Production human altering and should never be slabbed/graded. Some are easy to notice in hand, others are not so much - but they are all Altered/Authentic cards and not true versions or variations. Kind of like that 1952 Mantle where someone drew glasses on his face. (pic added)

They could have been dispersed to create a buzz for the '89 Fleer product after sales declined with the introduction of standard Black Box corrected cards. Fleer was sold later in 1989 so maybe they were trying to boost numbers. Who knows?

Do I own a few 'graded' Whiteouts? Sure. But they are just part of my collection. Part of the FF story. PSA, BGS and SGC to be exact.

This was years before everyone had the internet. For some time, Whiteouts and White Scribbles were being mixed up and confused. White Scribbles are real but also are faked. Buyer beware. 10 years ago, there was a rash of these popping up.

I have received dozens of these cards from people that either worked at Fleer or had direct contact. From within the plant, but Post Production / altered.

One of my favorite FF cards was obtained from the estate of the late former head of Fleer - Frank Mustin who died in 2018. It's a Black Box cards with a whiteout smudge on the front. Someone also wrote "Make it look Professional' on the surface. Pretty cool card that resided with Mr. Mustin for 30 years. Smoking gun? You never know. Cool card though.

The Gilkeson article mentions 'White Box' but not 'Whiteout'. I have seen square-ish, oval, circle, smooth, fuzzy etc white knobs. Maybe he was simply referring to one or a few box-ish examples he had seen.

Great topic!

[jp1216]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I use the Lenny rule, if I never seen Lenny selling it I consider it something someone faked/altered when it comes to the Ripken card.

Leonard Helicher - one of the OG FF dealers. Sadly passed in early 2020. He always said - ALL Whiteout cards (not White Scribbles) are FAKE. He had direct links inside Fleer and obtained lots of stuff smuggled out by employees.

I obtained many rare cards from Lenny!

I'm still amazed how many people buy these fake/altered cards every week. Hundreds of dollars each. Too many scammers taking a $1 Black Box version and printing money five minutes later. Graded/Authentic or not - they are Post Production creations! Hand altered after printing. Smooth surface or not. Consistent shine/gloss or not. They were likely never printed this way.

I always consider the White Scribble the true 'whited out' card. Legit factory printed version.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by jp1216

Leonard Helicher - one of the OG FF dealers. Sadly passed in early 2020. He always said - ALL Whiteout cards (not White Scribbles) are FAKE. He had direct links inside Fleer and obtained lots of stuff smuggled out by employees.

I obtained many rare cards from Lenny!

I'm still amazed how many people buy these fake/altered cards every week. Hundreds of dollars each. Too many scammers taking a $1 Black Box version and printing money five minutes later. Graded/Authentic or not - they are Post Production creations! Hand altered after printing. Smooth surface or not. Consistent shine/gloss or not. They were likely never printed this way.

I always consider the White Scribble the true 'whited out' card. Legit factory printed version.

So this is very helpful. There is an obvious distinction between "white scribble' and 'whiteout,' correct? Most examples of a white scribble do appear to be printed on the card which makes sense because there doesnt seem to be variance in the remaining bits of the knob words. Done by hand would require a ton of effort to match a real example.

If I understand correctly, whiteouts are all human made, either via Fleer employees in 1989 or people attempting to trick buyers. This my next question, why would PSA slab a card with an aberrant surface? Can't imagine they'd miss the texture difference.

Lastly, so in your collecting history, have you ever encountered what Gilkeson describes in a white box "nearly identical to the black box" version? I will reread this guide every few years and almost always find something new to look into, in this case, I had never heard of (or seen) a white box version of this card.

[jp1216]

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

So this is very helpful. There is an obvious distinction between "white scribble' and 'whiteout,' correct? Most examples of a white scribble do appear to be printed on the card which makes sense because there doesnt seem to be variance in the remaining bits of the knob words. Done by hand would require a ton of effort to match a real example.

Most (but not all Whiteouts are real cards with altered surfaces). There are fake Whiteout cards too. Bogus cheap reprint fakes. White Scribbles also have fake/bogus examples floating around out there. I've seen them sell for $300! Sad.

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

If I understand correctly, whiteouts are all human made, either via Fleer employees in 1989 or people attempting to trick buyers. This my next question, why would PSA slab a card with an aberrant surface? Can't imagine they'd miss the texture difference.

You'd have to ask the 'experts'. Again, the texture/surface can be made to look real in 5 minutes. I'm sure practice makes perfect...

Originally Posted by jacksoncoupage

Lastly, so in your collecting history, have you ever encountered what Gilkeson describes in a white box "nearly identical to the black box" version? I will reread this guide every few years and almost always find something new to look into, in this case, I had never heard of (or seen) a white box version of this card.

I do have a couple cards that look close to Gilkeson's example. But I can also make one very easily. I try not to post these weird oddballs too much. It can lead to numerous fakes popping up overnight.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by jp1216

Most (but not all Whiteouts are real cards with altered surfaces). There are fake Whiteout cards too. Bogus cheap reprint fakes. White Scribbles also have fake/bogus examples floating around out there. I've seen them sell for $300! Sad.



You'd have to ask the 'experts'. Again, the texture/surface can be made to look real in 5 minutes. I'm sure practice makes perfect...




I do have a couple cards that look close to Gilkeson's example. But I can also make one very easily. I try not to post these weird oddballs too much. It can lead to numerous fakes popping up overnight.

Fair enough.

My interest in the Ripkens only went as far as whether or not this box version existed, I'm always excited about new discoveries in junk wax sets. The info you and BNorth have shared has been very helpful in understanding the whole whiteout thing. For years I've seen them turn up on comc and ebay and always felt they looked like someone had taken an eraser to them, a practice I'm familiar with while trying to chase down a rumored 1990 Upper Deck variation over the years.

[jp1216]

The real rare cards listed by Gilkeson are those 'Semi Airbrushed' versions (j). I call them 'Circle Scribbles'. Black, circular pattern found in a few levels of coverage. Harder to find than White Scribbles.
He also refers to colored dots. I am not 100% sure but I assume he's talking about the Red 'Bulls Eye' dot found on 1% of FFs. The White dots - he could be talking about the random White circles/dots found on most versions of the card. Fish eyes? The 'Blue' Dot could be the random purplish/pinkish dots I've found on a few Black Box cards.
Just print defects - not versions/variations.

The Gilkeson article was published in the July 1990 issue of Tuff Stuff (Nolan Ryan cover)

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by jp1216

The real rare cards listed by Gilkeson are those 'Semi Airbrushed' versions (j). I call them 'Circle Scribbles'. Black, circular pattern found in a few levels of coverage. Harder to find than White Scribbles.
He also refers to colored dots. I am not 100% sure but I assume he's talking about the Red 'Bulls Eye' dot found on 1% of FFs. The White dots - he could be talking about the random White circles/dots found on most versions of the card. Fish eyes? The 'Blue' Dot could be the random purplish/pinkish dots I've found on a few Black Box cards.
Just print defects - not versions/variations.

The Gilkeson article was published in the July 1990 issue of Tuff Stuff (Nolan Ryan cover)

There are many, many, Gilkeson variations that I can only guess as to what he is describing. Some of which I have been chasing down since acquiring his book in 2004. A handful of my queries made their way to him 10 years or so ago only to find that he doesn't recall the card(s), which is totally fair. I had the same questions on those 'dot' mentions.

[philliesfan]

I m not sure if this is the variation you are looking for but I sold this on ebay some time ago. Maybe within the last three years.
Bob

1989 Fleer Ripken white scribble.jpg

1989 Fleer Ripken white scribble Close Up.jpg

[philliesfan]

Here is another on top of a cello pack.
1989 cello ripken whiteout.jpg

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by philliesfan

I m not sure if this is the variation you are looking for but I sold this on ebay some time ago. Maybe within the last three years.
Bob

Attachment 668428

Attachment 668429

Those are all the white scribble versions. Not really rare but not common either.

[jacksoncoupage]

Originally Posted by philliesfan

I m not sure if this is the variation you are looking for but I sold this on ebay some time ago. Maybe within the last three years.
Bob

Attachment 668428

Attachment 668429

Very cool card but not what I thought I was looking for. But the consensus seems to be that what I had asked about is likely one of the many "creative creations" surrounding this card.

[jacksoncoupage]

Funny enough, TCDB lists a "whiteout" variation and the pic could fit what I thought Gilkeson was describing.

https://www.tcdb.com/ViewCard.cfm/si...16-Bill-Ripken

[jacksoncoupage]

Donovan's Ryan E&V book from 2009 mentions a "version X" more than once and he states that he'd share more info at a later time. His email exchange with a Fleer/Skybox rep in 2003 seems to also mention it (redacted) as well.

Can anyone clarify what this version is? Is Donovan still around?

[jp1216]

Donovan is still around. Lightly collecting as well.

I'm not 100% sure about that X version. I think he was referring to a dark Circle Scribble with a saw-cut thru the bat knob. Only half of the Scribble is visible and it looked like a Round Black Box. It wasn't until a couple years later that we uncovered that card without the cut/slit.

His eBay ID is ryansrust

[golfr19]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I use the Lenny rule, if I never seen Lenny selling it I consider it something someone faked/altered when it comes to the Ripken card.

Like you I remember the article on the white box but I have never actually seen one. What do you mean by aftermarket? I have never seen a whiteout that I believe someone didn't make at home but as far as I know all the scribble versions are 100% factory printed.

I am far from an 89 Fleer error/variation expert but I have owned a couple.

I know the chances are super small, and I just joined this community, but I've been searching for a PSA 10 whited out (I know they may not be real...might be all altered, etc.,). If you have any leads or know of anyone who might be willing to part with one, let me know. Worth a shot! Thanks all.

[jp1216]

Welcome to Net54. Pretty sure you emailed me last week as well. My opinions on 'Whiteout' (not White Scribble) cards is well known. That being said - PSA 10 fake graded cards do exist and do pop up on eBay etc from time to time. Your best bet is to watch eBay for a few months.
Spend your money on real cards - but I wish I had a 10 to part will.....
Happy Hunting!