Hey, pennant guys

[UKCardGuy]

I don't have it in hand yet but I have discovered a new version of the Grommet pennant series. It's 1914 Champions but the Boston Bees rather than the Boston Braves.

I think this helps to prove Greg's hypothesis in post #9366 that the Grommet "Champions" pennants were produced for the HoF museum opening in 1939.

As you'll be aware, the Braves changed their name to the Bees for a few years between 1936-1940. So it seems that the standard was to use the then current name of the teams on the pennant. That's why this pennant reads Bees instead of Braves. It's also why the 1920 pennant features the Dodgers rather than the "Robins" as they were known in 1920.

Considering that there are "Champions" pennants with dates including 1914, 1920, 1936 and 1939, I think it helps to establish the pennants are from 1939.

In 1939 these were the players inducted (including those from the veteran's committee):

• Ty Cobb (Tigers, Athletics)
• Walter Johnson (Senators)
• Christy Mathewson (Giants)
• Honus Wagner (Pirates)
• Babe Ruth (Yankees)
• Nap Lajoie (Indians)
• Tris Speaker (Red Sox, Indians, Senators, Athletics)
• Cy Young (Spiders/Indians, Cardinals, Red Sox, Braves)
• George Wright (Red Sox, Braves, Providence Greys)
• Grover Alexander (Phillies, Cubs, Cardinals)
• Eddie Collins (Athletics, White Sox)
• Willie Keeler (Giants, Dodgers, Orioles, Yankees)
• George Sisler (Browns, Senators, Braves)
• Cap Anson (Rockford Forest, Athletics, Cubs)
• Buck Ewing (Troy Trojans, Giants, Spiders/Indians, Reds)
• Candy Cummings (Reds, NY Mutuals, Baltimore Canaries, Hartford Dark Blues))
• Charles Radbourn (Providence Greys, Braves, Red Sox, Reds)

It seems possible that the pennants were celebrating the last world series appearance for the teams that the inductees played with. e.g. 1936 Yankees (Ruth) and Giants; 1920 Indians (Tris Speaker) and Dodgers (Keeler);

So far these are the known Champions Grommet pennants:

1914 Bees
1915 Phillies
1918 Red Sox
1919 White Sox
1920 Dodgers
1920 Indians
1933 Senators
1935 Tigers
1936 Yankees
1936 Giants

There are Grommet pennants for the Cardinals and Browns but those aren't Champions versions. I'm going on the assumption that they only produced pennants for teams that were in the MLB at the time - so no Providence Greys, Troy Trojans or Hartford Dark Blues. All of this implies that Championship grommet pennants might exist for the Pirates, Athletics, Reds, Cardinals, Browns and Cubs,

Going one step further, I wonder if the players on some of the pennants are based on the HoF inductees. Is the player on the Yankees pennant meant to be Babe Ruth? Doesn't the player on the Senators pennant resemble this photo of Walter Johnson? Doesn't the player on my Braves/Bees pennant look a lot like George Sisler?

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I don't have it in hand yet but I have discovered a new version of the Grommet pennant series. It's 1914 Champions but the Boston Bees rather than the Boston Braves.

I think this helps to prove Greg's hypothesis in post #9366 that the Grommet "Champions" pennants were produced for the HoF museum opening in 1939.

As you'll be aware, the Braves changed their name to the Bees for a few years between 1936-1940. So it seems that the standard was to use the then current name of the teams on the pennant. That's why this pennant reads Bees instead of Braves. It's also why the 1920 pennant features the Dodgers rather than the "Robins" as they were known in 1920.

Considering that there are "Champions" pennants with dates including 1914, 1920, 1936 and 1939, I think it helps to establish the pennants are from 1939.

In 1939 these were the players inducted (including those from the veteran's committee):

• Ty Cobb (Tigers, Athletics)
• Walter Johnson (Senators)
• Christy Mathewson (Giants)
• Honus Wagner (Pirates)
• Babe Ruth (Yankees)
• Nap Lajoie (Indians)
• Tris Speaker (Red Sox, Indians, Senators, Athletics)
• Cy Young (Spiders/Indians, Cardinals, Red Sox, Braves)
• George Wright (Red Sox, Braves, Providence Greys)
• Grover Alexander (Phillies, Cubs, Cardinals)
• Eddie Collins (Athletics, White Sox)
• Willie Keeler (Giants, Dodgers, Orioles, Yankees)
• George Sisler (Browns, Senators, Braves)
• Cap Anson (Rockford Forest, Athletics, Cubs)
• Buck Ewing (Troy Trojans, Giants, Spiders/Indians, Reds)
• Candy Cummings (Reds, NY Mutuals, Baltimore Canaries, Hartford Dark Blues))
• Charles Radbourn (Providence Greys, Braves, Red Sox, Reds)

It seems possible that the pennants were celebrating the last world series appearance for the teams that the inductees played with. e.g. 1936 Yankees (Ruth) and Giants; 1920 Indians (Tris Speaker) and Dodgers (Keeler);

So far these are the known Champions Grommet pennants:

1914 Bees
1915 Phillies
1918 Red Sox
1919 White Sox
1920 Dodgers
1920 Indians
1933 Senators
1935 Tigers
1936 Yankees
1936 Giants

There are Grommet pennants for the Cardinals and Browns but those aren't Champions versions. I'm going on the assumption that they only produced pennants for teams that were in the MLB at the time - so no Providence Greys, Troy Trojans or Hartford Dark Blues. All of this implies that Championship grommet pennants might exist for the Pirates, Athletics, Reds, Cardinals, Browns and Cubs,

Going one step further, I wonder if the players on some of the pennants are based on the HoF inductees. Is the player on the Yankees pennant meant to be Babe Ruth? Doesn't the player on the Senators pennant resemble this photo of Walter Johnson? Doesn't the player on my Braves/Bees pennant look a lot like George Sisler?

Gary … wow that’s still a super cool pennant, it may not be 1914 but still 85+ years old and great condition. And yes it does provide a major clue to solving the mystery.

I have seen a Championship grommet Athletics and I am pretty sure I’ve seen a Pirates.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Going one step further, I wonder if the players on some of the pennants are based on the HoF inductees. Is the player on the Yankees pennant meant to be Babe Ruth? Doesn't the player on the Senators pennant resemble this photo of Walter Johnson? Doesn't the player on my Braves/Bees pennant look a lot like George Sisler?

Can you provide a picture of the '33 Senators? Thanks.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Can you provide a picture of the '33 Senators? Thanks.

Here you go, Hank. This isn't mine, I think Greg posted it before.

[ooo-ribay]

Excellent hypothesizing, Gary! I think you’re on to something. 👍

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Here you go, Hank. This isn't mine, I think Greg posted it before.

Thanks. I'd guess that was indeed based a bit loosely on the classic WaJo photo.

[jsage]

Outstanding Pennant,
Jerry Sage

[Vintagedeputy]

That Senators pennant is fantastic.

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I don't have it in hand yet but I have discovered a new version of the Grommet pennant series. It's 1914 Champions but the Boston Bees rather than the Boston Braves.

I think this helps to prove Greg's hypothesis in post #9366 that the Grommet "Champions" pennants were produced for the HoF museum opening in 1939.

As you'll be aware, the Braves changed their name to the Bees for a few years between 1936-1940. So it seems that the standard was to use the then current name of the teams on the pennant. That's why this pennant reads Bees instead of Braves. It's also why the 1920 pennant features the Dodgers rather than the "Robins" as they were known in 1920.

Considering that there are "Champions" pennants with dates including 1914, 1920, 1936 and 1939, I think it helps to establish the pennants are from 1939.

In 1939 these were the players inducted (including those from the veteran's committee):

• Ty Cobb (Tigers, Athletics)
• Walter Johnson (Senators)
• Christy Mathewson (Giants)
• Honus Wagner (Pirates)
• Babe Ruth (Yankees)
• Nap Lajoie (Indians)
• Tris Speaker (Red Sox, Indians, Senators, Athletics)
• Cy Young (Spiders/Indians, Cardinals, Red Sox, Braves)
• George Wright (Red Sox, Braves, Providence Greys)
• Grover Alexander (Phillies, Cubs, Cardinals)
• Eddie Collins (Athletics, White Sox)
• Willie Keeler (Giants, Dodgers, Orioles, Yankees)
• George Sisler (Browns, Senators, Braves)
• Cap Anson (Rockford Forest, Athletics, Cubs)
• Buck Ewing (Troy Trojans, Giants, Spiders/Indians, Reds)
• Candy Cummings (Reds, NY Mutuals, Baltimore Canaries, Hartford Dark Blues))
• Charles Radbourn (Providence Greys, Braves, Red Sox, Reds)

It seems possible that the pennants were celebrating the last world series appearance for the teams that the inductees played with. e.g. 1936 Yankees (Ruth) and Giants; 1920 Indians (Tris Speaker) and Dodgers (Keeler);

So far these are the known Champions Grommet pennants:

1914 Bees
1915 Phillies
1918 Red Sox
1919 White Sox
1920 Dodgers
1920 Indians
1933 Senators
1935 Tigers
1936 Yankees
1936 Giants

There are Grommet pennants for the Cardinals and Browns but those aren't Champions versions. I'm going on the assumption that they only produced pennants for teams that were in the MLB at the time - so no Providence Greys, Troy Trojans or Hartford Dark Blues. All of this implies that Championship grommet pennants might exist for the Pirates, Athletics, Reds, Cardinals, Browns and Cubs,

Going one step further, I wonder if the players on some of the pennants are based on the HoF inductees. Is the player on the Yankees pennant meant to be Babe Ruth? Doesn't the player on the Senators pennant resemble this photo of Walter Johnson? Doesn't the player on my Braves/Bees pennant look a lot like George Sisler?

Gary, (and Greg) solid theory! I think the Bees/1914 discrepancy does suggest this pennant was made closer to 1939 than 1914. Good catch. (I would have just assumed they were known as the Bees in 1914....)

But actually I think your best evidence is the mere fact that it's unlikely a pennant maker would maintain the exact same design + construction over a 25 year period. Five, maybe 10 years, okay. But 25? Most pennant makers would have folded or transitioned to a new look by then.

Two questions for the group: (1) Has anyone found an image of the elusive '15 Phillies and '18 Red Sox grommet pennants they can share? (2) What made us zero in on the HoF opening as the source/inspiration for these?

[ooo-ribay]

Have you covered these in your blog, Kyle? I know they’ve ben shown a few at a time throughout this thread, but I’d love to see them all in one place. I’m jonesing for some new pennantfever content! Weren’t you going to cover ABCO or some name similar to that?

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Have you covered these in your blog, Kyle? I know they’ve ben shown a few at a time throughout this thread, but I’d love to see them all in one place. I’m jonesing for some new pennantfever content! Weren’t you going to cover ABCO or some name similar to that?

I did indeed. I think I now have images of all known grommet pennants from the championship series, plus a few others. See:

https://pennantfactory.weebly.com/bl...champs-pennant

[thetahat]

Here is my 1939 Browns

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by thetahat

Here is my 1939 Browns

There is a matching Cardinals version of this pennant as well. I believe there is one for 1942 as well.

[thetahat]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

There is a matching Cardinals version of this pennant as well. I believe there is one for 1942 as well.

Yes here is the 1939. I believe I’ve seen a 1937 and 1938, they are super rare.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I did indeed. I think I now have images of all known grommet pennants from the championship series, plus a few others. See:

https://pennantfactory.weebly.com/bl...champs-pennant

You’re the man.

Go Brewers!

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Domer05

I did indeed. I think I now have images of all known grommet pennants from the championship series, plus a few others.

The mystery of the grommet pennants is a great one. I remember seeing a Senators for sale at a Chantilly show maybe 25 years ago. They wanted $300 or $400 for it and I foolishly passed on it. Don't know if it's the same one pictured here or not.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Gary, (and Greg) solid theory! I think the Bees/1914 discrepancy does suggest this pennant was made closer to 1939 than 1914. Good catch. (I would have just assumed they were known as the Bees in 1914....)

But actually I think your best evidence is the mere fact that it's unlikely a pennant maker would maintain the exact same design + construction over a 25 year period. Five, maybe 10 years, okay. But 25? Most pennant makers would have folded or transitioned to a new look by then.

Two questions for the group: (1) Has anyone found an image of the elusive '15 Phillies and '18 Red Sox grommet pennants they can share? (2) What made us zero in on the HoF opening as the source/inspiration for these?

It was Greg who first proposed the idea that these were from the HoF.

But the more I've looked at these pennants, the more that makes sense.

• Both the Dodgers and the Bees were not known by those names in 1920 and 1914, respectively.
  
  I've started looking online for HoF photos from 1939.
• The 25 year span of these pennants
• The last known year for the Champions Grommet pennants is 1936.
• The Braves were only known as the Bees from 1936-40
• The player images on the pennants align with known photographs of the players in the HoF at the time of the museum opening
• The HoF museum opened on June 12th, 1939
• The fact that they have grommets would make them suited to hanging in a display such as in the HoF).

My working theory was that the dates relate to the last time each team was in the world series. That works for all of the teams except the Yankees and Giants. The Yankees and Giants were also in the WS in 1937 and Yankees were there in 1938.

With regards to the 1939 Grommet Pennants for the Cardinals and the Browns. These don't have the word "Champions" on the spine. I'm not sure if that's because these were issued separately from the HoF ceremony or something else. But I suspect that's why Greg mentioned it might be a St. Louis manufacturer.

Maybe these were issued to celebrate the HoF inductions each year in 1936, 1937, 1938 and 1939. That would explain why the Yankees and Giants have 1936 as Ruth and Mathewson were inducted in 1936.

In post #8993, Greg said that he had photos of the Red Sox and Phillies pennants but the owner ask for it not to be shared. I respect that but is that because they don't want to show other items in their collection that are around it? If that's the case, maybe you could crop the photos to just show the pennants?

I'd also love to see photos of the Athletics and the Pirates Championship Grommet pennants.

I've started to search for photos of the HoF in 1939. If anyone has an upcoming trip to Cooperstown, maybe it's something the museum would be willing to let you look through some photo archives of the opening ceremony and museum?

[Domer05]

Like I said, well argued theory Gary and Greg. I would only push back on one point: the Dodgers were not exclusively known as the Robins in 1920--or any other year, really.

In fact, there's never been a pennant bearing the name "Robins" to my knowledge. The 1916 NL champs pennant I previously reproduced on Pennant Factory ID'd the team as "Dodgers" (see: https://pennantfactory.weebly.com/bl...champs-pennant ). Moreover, the 1920 World's Series program identified the team as "Dodgers" despite the fact that Wilbert Robinson himself was prominently featured on the cover. Both items were made during the height of Robinson's popularity; yet, the name "Dodgers" was featured on them.

I only wish your theory got us closer to ID'ing the mystery maker behind these grommet pennants.

I also spent some time looking for HoF dedication photos from the 1939 grand opening, hoping to find a spectator or two waving a pennant--but came up with nothing.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Domer05

Like I said, well argued theory Gary and Greg. I would only push back on one point: the Dodgers were not exclusively known as the Robins in 1920--or any other year, really.

In fact, there's never been a pennant bearing the name "Robins" to my knowledge. The 1916 NL champs pennant I previously reproduced on Pennant Factory ID'd the team as "Dodgers" (see: https://pennantfactory.weebly.com/bl...champs-pennant ). Moreover, the 1920 World's Series program identified the team as "Dodgers" despite the fact that Wilbert Robinson himself was prominently featured on the cover. Both items were made during the height of Robinson's popularity; yet, the name "Dodgers" was featured on them.

I only wish your theory got us closer to ID'ing the mystery maker behind these grommet pennants.

I also spent some time looking for HoF dedication photos from the 1939 grand opening, hoping to find a spectator or two waving a pennant--but came up with nothing.

Thanks Kyle. I concede that the Dodgers were commonly called the Dodgers in 1920. But we know for certain that the Braves were only called the Bees from 1936-1940.

With regards to the HoF pictures, I'm wondering if they'd be inside in the main hall or on a display. The use of grommets on pennants sold to fans seems an extra expense and complication that they wouldn't have needed. The grommets seems to be most useful if the pennants were being displayed hanging down in a display.

[bigfanNY]

Won this pennant as part of a group of items. What I know is it comes from estate of player from the 1951 Team named Margaret Carroll. She signed with the Peaches at the age of 16 pitched one season then left pro ball. Very pretty and my first few searches I cannot come up with any sales. Lots of Rockford peaches pennants but almost all are later reprints produced after the film. I would appreciate any help.

[perezfan]

Great stuff! You don’t see the Mini versions very often… especially those that come from an actual player’s estate. Awesome!

Here’s mine (3/4 size original). The reproduction versions are quite obvious (and unattractive, IMHO). Great to see authentic examples!

[Domer05]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Thanks Kyle. I concede that the Dodgers were commonly called the Dodgers in 1920. But we know for certain that the Braves were only called the Bees from 1936-1940.

Yup, that's why I buy your theory

I wonder if this collection of grommet pennants were maybe part of a promotional giveaway? You know, like a "Collect all past league champion pennants" promotional giveaway? They're not the highest quality pennants so this seems like a good possibility.

[jsage]

WOW - Another BLAZER from Mark.
Amazing - what a great eye.
Jerry Sage