Ohtani or Ruth?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ohtaini's CAREER pitching WAR is 16.2. Let's keep it real, shall we?

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ohtaini's CAREER pitching WAR is 16.2. Let's keep it real, shall we?

Keeping it real: When was the last time we've had a hitter with even, say, 3 WAR while also getting 1 WAR as a pitcher in the same season? Ohtani far exceeded that in every one of the (soon to be) three years he's won MVP as a two way player.

And then consider how hard it is to do that when you're competing against the caliber of professional athletes today.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bk400

Keeping it real: When was the last time we've had a hitter with even, say, 3 WAR while also getting 1 WAR as a pitcher in the same season? Ohtani far exceeded that in every one of the (soon to be) three years he's won MVP as a two way player.

And then consider how hard it is to do that when you're competing against the caliber of professional athletes today.

Sure, it's an amazing feat, and of course he's an incredible athlete, but in context IMO it doesn't make him Babe Ruth or Willie Mays or whoever in terms of value. Maybe not even Aaron Judge. What's the real VALUE in having someone who can do both -- it saves you one roster spot so you can pick up a 25th man to sit on the bench?

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sure, it's an amazing feat, and of course he's an incredible athlete, but in context IMO it doesn't make him Babe Ruth or Willie Mays or whoever in terms of value. Maybe not even Aaron Judge. What's the real VALUE in having someone who can do both -- it saves you one roster spot so you can pick up a 25th man to sit on the bench?

If value in terms of career WAR is your measure of who is better, then Phil Niekro was a better pitcher than both Clayton Kershaw and Bob Gibson.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bk400

If value in terms of career WAR is your measure of who is better, then Phil Niekro was a better pitcher than both Clayton Kershaw and Bob Gibson.

Want to compare Ohtani's WAR7 to Ruth's?
I looked it up. As a hitter, 35.4 for Ohtani to 84.7 for Ruth. So let's talk about peaks, shall we? For reference, Aaron Judge is 56.9.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Want to compare Ohtani's WAR7 to Ruth's?

Strawman. Team Ohtani has never made the argument that WAR is the right metric to measure baseball players across different eras.

[Seven]

Originally Posted by bk400

Strawman. Team Ohtani has never made the argument that WAR is the right metric to measure baseball players across different eras.

Just to chime in, if you don't mind. I can't speak for Ohtani's effectiveness as a pitcher or comparing across eras, because I do not know the stat for it. There is, however a stat that is all encompassing that measures a players offensive production, across eras, adjusting for park factors. I've included an image below that gives a more comprehensive definition below, along with its formula.






If we go by this statistical measurement. It's Ruth, it's not close. He owns a 194 wRC+. Ohtani's is very impressive though, sitting at a 156 wRC+.

For reference, it labels the three best hitters of all time, assuming minimum 1500 games, as Ruth, Williams and Bonds in that order.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Want to compare Ohtani's WAR7 to Ruth's?
I looked it up. As a hitter, 35.4 for Ohtani to 84.7 for Ruth. So let's talk about peaks, shall we? For reference, Aaron Judge is 56.9.

That is only for hitting. His overall WAR7 is 51.9. His total WAR in the Covid year was -.4 (from his pitching). He has played 8 seasons with 51.5 total WAR. His peak is not Ruth or even Judge, but for example Frank Robinson was 52.9 and Ohtani will pass him, and a bunch of other Hofers next year. His WAR in 2019 was 2.4. He could easily catch or pass Judge with another 7.5+ season. He has averaged 9 WAR the last 5 years and his worst season was 7.7.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

That is only for hitting. His overall WAR7 is 51.9. His total WAR in the Covid year was -.4 (from his pitching). He has played 8 seasons with 51.5 total WAR. His peak is not Ruth or even Judge, but for example Frank Robinson was 52.9 and Ohtani will pass him, and a bunch of other Hofers next year. His WAR in 2019 was 2.4. He could easily catch or pass Judge with another 7.5+ season. He has averaged 9 WAR the last 5 years and his worst season was 7.7.

Yes, he absolutely is a great player, and the two way thing is amazing as I have said. I just don't buy the comparison to Ruth.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Sure, it's an amazing feat, and of course he's an incredible athlete, but in context IMO it doesn't make him Babe Ruth or Willie Mays or whoever in terms of value. Maybe not even Aaron Judge. What's the real VALUE in having someone who can do both -- it saves you one roster spot so you can pick up a 25th man to sit on the bench?

For the Game it showcases an exceptional human being.