My thoughts on these stupid grading posts

Orioles1954 · #1 05-21-2010, 07:20 AM

Clean up your language. Believe it or not, we do have kids on this board. And even if we didn't, your wanton use of profanity makes your point that much less valid.

FrankWakefield · #2 05-21-2010, 07:53 AM

Amen to curtailing the profanity. The Ichiro link should be removed, funny to me though it is; and the other posts edited to be cleaned up a bit.

"These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. "

That's what it says up there... devoted to cards, not slabs. I thought the slab companies had boards for the slab stuff. So I agree with the idea of fewer posts about registries, cross-overs, and particular grading issues. I can see how once in a while a thread about such would be justified. For me, I'd rather see Leon's quarter than see another post about graded cards. I've had some cards graded so they'd sell better, when I'm selling I'm after money... I've cracked out most of the graded cards I've bought, I hate the slabs, they take up lots of storage space. I have a few graded cards I've not cracked out, my favorite is one I've left because the card is mis-identified. Not that that is a rarity among graded cards, but I just like seeing how SGC got it wrong and any collector with part of a brain can see that they did. Joe P is smiling

Leon · #3 05-21-2010, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Clean up your language. Believe it or not, we do have kids on this board. And even if we didn't, your wanton use of profanity makes your point that much less valid.

I have to walk my little girl out to the bus in about one minute, and then go to a meeting, but will post more on this subject later this morning. I can't allow F-bombs and have edited those out. WE do have children that get on the board. I left the one youtube video as you can barely understand what the gentleman said but I was a hair away from deleting it too, and still might. Be careful with the language please.....more later....regards

4815162342 · #4 05-21-2010, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Clean up your language. Believe it or not, we do have kids on this board. And even if we didn't, your wanton use of profanity makes your point that much less valid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I have to walk my little girl out to the bus in about one minute, and then go to a meeting, but will post more on this subject later this morning. I can't allow F-bombs and have edited those out. WE do have children that get on the board. I left the one youtube video as you can barely understand what the gentleman said but I was a hair away from deleting it too, and still might. Be careful with the language please.....more later....regards

Thank you gentlemen.

GrayGhost · #5 05-21-2010, 09:37 AM

Honestly, the grading stuff is a bit much. Simply, you send it in for grading, and thats how it comes out. There's always a risk with anything. I'd say do the research on which company you want, and just go with it. if you are going to crack all those out and have the funds to blow on grading w another company, however it comes out is your luck.

Kawika · #6 05-21-2010, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I have to walk my little girl out to the bus in about one minute, and then go to a meeting, but will post more on this subject later this morning. I can't allow F-bombs and have edited those out. WE do have children that get on the board. I left the one youtube video as you can barely understand what the gentleman said but I was a hair away from deleting it too, and still might. Be careful with the language please.....more later....regards

On account that women and children read this board and in deference to the one or two gentlemen who also participate, the offending Ichiro YouTube video has been removed.

Leon · #7 05-21-2010, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kawika

On account that women and children read this board and in deference to the one or two gentlemen who also participate, the offending Ichiro YouTube video has been removed.

Thanks David. When I think about profanity on the board I truly use my 13 yr old little girl as my reference. I don't like her to be around F bombs and really harsh language but a few minor 4 letter words, sh**, da**, hell etc....aren't that big of a deal. The other day I totally blew it and slipped up and said an F bomb in front of her. She went straight to mom and told her what I said. I am still hearing about it. After that I am trying to curb my F-bomb usage in daily life, even if it is just under my breath. So, I ask all board members, before you post something, think about if it is ok for your, or someone elses, 13yr old to hear. If it is, then go for it...if not, then don't do it. And if you make an error in judgment then I will fix it

. This forum is about PG rated imho.....I try to be respectful of the women and children who might read it, even though they are probably few and far between, I know there are some. regards (and thanks again, David)

Jim VB · #8 05-21-2010, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

When I think about profanity on the board I truly use my 13 yr old little girl as my reference. I don't like her to be around F bombs and really harsh language...

If she goes to school with other, living, breathing, kids, she already hears way more of it than you want to know.

When my son was that age, and I was coaching his baseball team, I would bring my 9 year old daughter to practice. It helped control the mouths of the kids by having a "little girl" sitting on the bench... sometimes.

FUBAR · #9 05-21-2010, 03:40 PM

growing up working in the oilfield, i have trucker mouth a lot of times and don't realize it. The easiest way for me to control it is by typing.

Rob, i agree 4 months isn't that long, but comments made by people are all a matter of perception, if you look for rudeness and insensitivity you will find it. Take them for what they are , opinions, it is nothing personal. If you look at them like that, things will never bother you. The one thing about typing is you cannot see emotion or tone so therefore interpretation becomes more important. Just opinions, that's all.... just like my above statement, just a little net 54 love and an opinion!

dstudeba · #10 05-21-2010, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

And if you make an error in judgment then I will fix it

.

Thanks for the chuckle Leon, I enjoyed this quote.

Kawika · #11 05-21-2010, 04:06 PM

No problem, Leon. But you gotta admit the Ichiro video was pretty funny. The old software automatically asterisked out profanities but the new version does not and a certain amount of vulgarity now pops up here on FiveFour. (This is probably not altogether a good thing because it's a slippery slope down to the Internet Cesspool). I have been guilty of it myself as I am a vulgar and profane kind of guy, and of the philosophy that sometimes nothing says it better than a well chosen curse word. A true story (had it not have happened it would have been apocryphal): One day long ago when I was six or so my brother and I were bouncing around the backseat singing "doodoo poopoo" or some such and my father turned around and ordered "Say 'shit', dammit!!" The rest is history.

Rob D. · #12 05-21-2010, 05:33 PM

"When they pull that needle out, I let the expletives fly!"

Robextend · #13 05-21-2010, 05:37 PM

HAHA good one Rob. I always felt that Kramer's interaction with Mel Torme was one of the highlights of the whole run.

Touch'EmAll · #14 05-21-2010, 08:29 PM

By the quantity of responses, this topic DOES hit home with many of us - like it or not.

TPG has, for the most part, helped the hobby - lets be real folks.

Crying about grades IS part of the hobby nowadays - again, lets be real.

And partying with the good results is also very much part of the hobby.

I have been on both sides. Cry out loud if you want (to a certain extent), thats ok in my book. And rejoicing in the glory of a nice grade is very satisfying.

Finally, NO WAY would I be shelling out thousands in this hobby if it weren't for PSA & SGC.

mark evans · #15 05-21-2010, 10:32 PM

I think general discussions about TPG are a good thing as it has become a significant element of the hobby. Specific instances of disappointment may be less worthy of threads unless of an unusual nature in my view.

I share Bill C's view that TPG is a positive development. Even with its shortcomings, grading by one of the trusted companies provides a measure of reliability that, with the internet, allows most collectors access to many thousands of cards that they would otherwise not consider buying.

Its shortcomings appear two-fold: missing alterations and subjectivity. As to missing alterations, the companies should of course continue to strive to improve and stand behind their mistakes.

The problem of subjectivity cannot be overcome as it is implicit in the very nature of grading. There is no way the standards can be drawn tightly enough or applied in an identical manner every time (even by the same grader, let alone by all graders). Thus, while companies can take steps to improve consistency, there will always be unjustifiable discrepancies. (Over time, I should think this ambiguity would have the effect of reducing the differences in values among grades.)

Finally, it seems to me that these shortcomings exist to a greater degree in the non-slabbed world. Not that there is anything wrong with raw cards, which comprise the vast majority of my collection. They frequently offer a less costly alternative under certain circumstances; for example, where the buyer knows the seller and/or is not paying a large sum and/or is buying in person. But, adherents to the raw system ought to recognize that TPG serves a valuable function for the hobby.

Kenny Cole · #16 05-21-2010, 07:59 AM

Barry,

I am very conflicted about grading. My core being loathes it and I detest what it has done to the hobby. The myriad of recent posts about how people have been screwed on grades that they evidently thought they were entitled to exemplifies, at least in part, why. That being said, I have finally given in and now use it on some of my cards. I suppose what I should now do is go into a dissertation about every single perceived injustice that I have received at the hands of the people to whom I paid money to impartially grade my cards. Based on some of the responses to this thread, it seems as if that's what this board is now about.

I acknowledge that grading in some form or fashion is here to stay. I don't like it, but that's a fact. Do I think that it can be improved? Certainly, perhaps along the lines that Joann alluded to earlier. However, we aren't there yet. Instead, what we have had recently is thread after thread about how submitter X had some really great cards with really great grades, gambled on getting even better grades, lost the bet, and now wants to blame the grader.

Spare me. If you go to Vegas and put your money on black, you really don't have much room to bitch if the ball lands on red. When you send your cards in to be graded in hopes of making money, you are simply playing a different form of roulette. If you win, great. If you lose, don't whine. I don't care either way. They will be the same piece of cardboard after being graded that they were before, regardless of the number given.

barrysloate · #17 05-21-2010, 08:11 AM

Thanks Kenny for your response. I'm pretty much in your school. I do believe there are good things that have come out of TPG, but also many things I don't like. Nothing bothers me more than those silly and somewhat meaningless numbers, but I respect that many other collectors will disagree with me. I also feel that we have too many posts about bad personal experiences with submissions. Bill has every right to be mad about his experience, likewise Dan. But everyone who resubmits does so at great risk and that should be perfectly clear going in. So I don't know how many more threads we really need on this topic. Yes, I would be angry if it happened to me, but I wouldn't feel compelled to post it here.

Bicem · #18 05-21-2010, 08:40 AM

If collectors would just treat grades as more of a guide and/or a simple opinion instead of as the word of god, we'd be much better off in my opinion.

I like grading just to ensure authenticity and to have a cool looking, protective holder. I do not like the huge price discrepancies between grades. Also, the exact same card in a 5 holder is worth more than it is in a 4 holder really seems odd to me, it�s the same card!

I think as collectors become more experienced and knowledgeable about cards and the hobby itself, the importance they place on technical grades decreases. At least that's how it was for me.

Robextend · #19 05-21-2010, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bicem

I think as collectors become more experienced and knowledgeable about cards and the hobby itself, the importance they place on technical grades decreases. At least that's how it was for me.

That is how it is becoming for me as well.

M's_Fan · #20 05-21-2010, 09:59 AM

+1

M's_Fan · #21 05-21-2010, 10:40 AM

I'd just like to say that many people are taking these grading posts a bit too seriously.

Like it or not, grading has become a part of the hobby. Its sort of like umpiring in baseball. It is subjective, and that actually is in many ways what makes it interesting.

There will always be guys arguing down at the local bar after the game about whether the guy was safe or not, or whether that was a strike or a foul. Should the strike zone be expanded? Is that pitcher's move to first base a balk? Etc. Now I wouldn't barge into this conversation and say, "I don't want to talk about umpiring. I want to talk about baseball!"

This board is like the local watering hole for card geeks, we can hang out here and some like to discuss the umpiring of baseball cards. We are really arguing about the condition of the card, whether we think its VG/EX/NM/M etc, and the overall rules by which cards are judged. Before grading companies gave numeric grades, we had the label system, which many would argue about, and if grading companies all went away, some would still be here having heated conversations about whether a card is VG-EX or EX.

Now I admit my analogy isn't perfect, but my point is just that a card's condition is an aspect of the hobby that some people like to talk about. It isn't a threat to this board or the beginning of the downfall of all society.

T206Collector · #22 05-21-2010, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bicem

The exact same card in a 5 holder is worth more than it is in a 4 holder really seems odd to me, it�s the same card!

While I agree with the sentiment, for me the difference between a 4 and a 5 often means there is a hairline crease in the 4. When I was collecting high(ish) grade T206 cards, I drew my line between 4 and 5 for this reason. So, I stayed away from 4s as a general matter.

Leon · #23 05-21-2010, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T206Collector

While I agree with the sentiment, for me the difference between a 4 and a 5 often means there is a hairline crease in the 4. When I was collecting high(ish) grade T206 cards, I drew my line between 4 and 5 for this reason. So, I stayed away from 4s as a general matter.

I think you missed the point here. It's the EXACT same card, resubmitted....now worth more, or less, because of a number. I sort of agree that doesn't make sense but also understand why it does command more in value. Personally, the # grading game isn't for me but if others like it who am I to spoil their party? Some people can't understand why I do what I do!!

T206Collector · #24 05-21-2010, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I think you missed the point here. It's the EXACT same card, resubmitted....now worth more, or less, because of a number. I sort of agree that doesn't make sense but also understand why it does command more in value. Personally, the # grading game isn't for me but if others like it who am I to spoil their party? Some people can't understand why I do what I do!!

With all due respect -- the demand will go up for the same card if you first tell people there is a wrinkle in it and then you later tell people there is no wrinkle in it. That is how I often read SGC 50s and SGC 60s with respect to T206 cards.

Leon · #25 05-21-2010, 10:29 AM

Now that I can type for a few minutes let me address this topic from a moderator/owner perspective. First of all if ANYONE else ran the board I am sure it would be different in some manner. Everyone has their own ideas on how it should go. Here are some of my thoughts.

Kenny Cole (hey Kenny), the original poster, is a good hobby friend and one of my most-liked lawyers on the board. I see about 99% the same way he does on most things. That being said I slightly disagree on the sentiment concerning this thread. Are there possibly too many of these types of threads? Maybe, maybe not. For better or worse there are few bigger topics in the hobby than grading. For that reason the number of threads pertaining to it is substantial.

My philosophy is, and has been from day 1, is to have as hands off of an approach as I can with regards to moderation. Now, I understand this is a private type chatboard and there really is no "freedom of speech" but I still like to think there is, and manage it that way. I do NOT believe it is my right to tell people what to post about, as long as it pertains to something in our hobby. I don't tell people what to say in their posts either. I feel people should be left to hang themselves if they so desire. In my opinion the worst thing I could do is be too strict in the moderating category. Do I like card related threads and talking about our cards and the hobby, more than anything on the board? Sure I do. But to expect it to be soley that way is unrealistic, again, imo. During some calls yesterday it was funny how the other folks knew where I would be on some issues. If nothing else I try to be consistent and I try to help the other mods in keeping that consistency. It is a very, very open forum as long as the rules are kept in mind. I will come down on folks who continually mess up or cause way too much commotion, but those are rare instances. Everyone that has been on the board for very long knows what is allowed and what is not...and there is a LOT of leniency given in most matters, especially to everyday posters. I have 0 tolerance for very much harsh profanity or talking about others' family members. As recently seen no topic is off limits even concerning advertisers. When the banners went up there were a few advertisers that felt they should be protected from criticisms on the board. Before I hung up on their calls they were no longer advertisers. Every banner advertiser now understands that their company, including B and L, is not off limits.

I feel that all of these beliefs ADD to the legitimacy of the board, right or wrong. We are adding around 60-75 new members a month for some reason...and it's not because of my good looks!! I sort of feel like a boxing referee in that I should be seen but not heard. The less moderating I have to do the happier I am and I feel the better the board is. I always appreciate constructive criticism and take it as such. regards

tedzan · #26 05-21-2010, 11:34 AM

It is no surprise to many here....if I state how much I hate the Graded card phenomena. In my opinion....from the infamous
Alan Hager days (circa 1990), to the infamous PSA 8 Wagner, to the graded T206 fakes which were "Re-Fronted", to the pre-
sent situation....this Grading phenomena has adversely affected this BB card hobby. How many examples can offer of this ?
I will spare you how many.....as they are too numerous.

Unfortunately, there are many on this forum which have no way of comparing the present with the PPG (pre-professional gra-
ding) days of the 1970's, 1980's and early 1990's. Therefore, they are stuck in the "plastic age" and cannot be truly objective
about negative aspects of this current grading craze. Once you start professionally assigning "numbers" to pieces of cardboard,
that have no inherent $$$$ value, you've opened up a pandora's box of problems, corruption, etc.

But, I must be realistic.....we are all stuck with this Grading crap.....whether we like it or not. And, the only solution we have
was 1st suggested by Barry Sloate in another thread......

'What the numbers really do is keep the graders in business, and keep the resubmissions coming in at a brisk pace. The hobby
would be alive and well without them."

Kevin Cummings 2nd that suggestion in his excellent post (#15) earlier in this thread.

I could say a lot more on this subject, but that will only "tick-off" more Net54er's here. Resulting in no one ever responding to
my future threads here

So, I'll leave you with....to each his own.

TED Z

timzcardz · #27 05-21-2010, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

But, I must be realistic.....we are all stuck with this Grading crap.....whether we like it or not. And, the only solution we have
was 1st suggested by Barry Sloate in another thread......

TED Z

HELL NO!

If you love your cards, SET THEM FREE!

That's what I do.

And look at Jim Lemon. Just seeing that smile on his face is the only thanks that I need.

Chris-Counts · #28 05-21-2010, 12:31 PM

Great post, Kenny. I agree with most of what you say. I've never understood the whole graded card thing. Why should I pay extra for a trimmed card when I can just buy one raw for less money? I must admit, though, I get a guilty pleasure out of busting those darn things open. Curiously, the only card I've ever paid to get graded is a 1940 Play Ball color proof, and even though it's slabbed by SGC, I've had several folks here question its authenticity ...

Cat · #29 05-21-2010, 12:12 PM

I generally skip over any of the grading threads (but I tend to skip over any thread about T206/T205s too). I think part of the problem is the grading threads get so many replies, and thus bumped to the top, that folks feel compelled to go back and find out what train-wreck they missed. I like my cards graded but I really don't care what the grade is. If I have to have a magnifying glass to identify that there is a wrinkle then I really don't care about that wrinkle. I think folks get way to technical with this stuff.

Rob D. · #30 05-21-2010, 12:25 PM

Ted,

It's easy to attempt to discredit someone or something by picking and choosing and listing only the negative. You're one of the more valued contributors to this board. You've also posted some comically ridiculous statements -- as have I and probably every other member of this board (except one). Were someone to list only your not-so-great posts in an attempt to discredit you on the whole, it would be pretty easy. Folks who are dead-set against professional grading are adept at listing all of the negatives and none of the positives.

A lot of us were active in the hobby before professional grading came on the scene. It wasn't all candy and nuts. Dealers repeatedly overgraded their cards and undergraded yours. There was fraud then -- specifically card doctoring and trimming -- just like there is now. Do I wish, like I'm sure you do, that there was a "less professional" feel to the hobby now like there was in the 1970s? Absolutely. But I also know that professional grading has done some good, and to try to turn a blind eye toward that fact doesn't help your cause.

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