I'm almost POSITIVE this card features Shoeless Joe...

[packs]

All I'm saying is this. If that is a photo of Jackson on the T202, then to me it would have to be a totally different play than the one captured on the front of the newspaper. I just can't conceive how he would go from the position he's in on the T202 to the one on the front of the newspaper in just mili-seconds and in one fluid movement. To me, and this is my opinion, these are two different photos of either two different players OR the same player on different plays. Maybe it's theoretically possible for him to move his hand to his forehead, but where do you see that kind of momentum in the T202 photo? You're speculating that he COULD do it, but what about the T202 photo suggests he WOULD end up in the position he does on the newspaper? In the T202 photo the player's foot has just hit the ground and is beginning to spray up the dirt. In the newspaper photo Jackson's foot is way off the ground. If these photos were taken consecutively, then why is there no dirt thrown up in the newspaper photo? The only dirt being thrown up in the newspaper photo appears to be from his upper body. For a person's hand to go from their waist to their head in consecutive frames, there would need to be some sort of middle ground. His arm would already need to be rising or be near his head at the time of the slide. I'm no expert, but I just don't see how the player's hand could go from waist to head in consecutive frames or any indication that the player is raising his arm in the T202 photo.

As for the pinstripes, you're an expert and I value your opinion. The only thing I'm going to say is that these men are professionals. They would have practiced technique daily for hours and hours until every play became a sort of routine. Unless they make a dramatic change, a player is always going to look the same at bat or during a pitch, or turning a double play. It's been rooted in them through repetition. I'm just putting it out there, but there's a good chance Lord held the bag down in a similar position every time. That could just be his stance when the bag is being challenged. Maybe in these two instances he is in that routine and this is an example of lightning striking twice.

[nolemmings]

I guess I would disagree with you on what those pictures show, and how they could have been taken moments apart.

More importantly, I also do not agree that these plays are so routine the players will always look the same. The play in the photo was unusual--a tag play at third. Even more odd is that Joe Jackson appears to have made a bonehead play--trying to advance to third on a ball hit to shortstop. Lord's feet and body are positioned for a throw from shortstop with a straddle for tagging purposes--not a throw from second base, first base, outfield or anywhere else, and not with feet postioned for a force play. This play simply does not happen that often, and I doubt that there was a "routine" way to receive such a throw that it would look the same every time, down to the wrinkles in the uniform.

Hopefully we can eventually pull play by play or other newspaper accounts to see if this tag play happened in any of the other games played by these two teams in Cleveland that season. I note that in the box score for the 5/6 game, Harry Lord was credited with 0 putouts, so we can eliminate that game as a source for the t202 card image as well.

[bmarlowe1]

As to the slider's arm and hand movement - try to think about it this way. Let's say the runner was running 18 mph (a ballpark figure - close enough). During the slide he is decellerating - so he is moving at less than his running speed - less than 18 mph. It appears that from the earlier in time photo (the card) to the later in time photo (in the newspaper) he has moved a foot or two closer to 3rd base. So - in that amount of time could a human move his hand from his waist to his face? How fast would his hand have to move? Actually not that fast - his hand would have to move at very roughly the same speed as his feet. Seems pretty easy to me.

[packs]

I"m not doubting the ability or possibility to move your hand, I'm doubting that the body language of the player in the T202 photo suggests the outcome shown in the newspaper photo. I know your reputation for photo identification and I don't mean to question or challenge your ability or put down the opinions of others. I just want to make that clear. All I'm trying to do is put my opinions out there and talk about what I see.

[Abravefan11]

All of the body parts that change position on both Lord and Joe move proportionally from one photo to the next. All of the body parts that remain relatively stationary are in the same position in both photos. Importantly there is not an indicator that I believe you can point to from one photo to the next that is far enough out of context to discredit the stance that both photos were taken of the same play.

[brett]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

All of the body parts that change position on both Lord and Joe move proportionally from one photo to the next. All of the body parts that remain relatively stationary are in the same position in both photos. Importantly there is not an indicator that I believe you can point to from one photo to the next that is far enough out of context to discredit the stance that both photos were taken of the same play.

Exactly. The only person who would say that it couldn't be the same sequence is just a person who is in denial at this point.

[Kawika]

Bump.

[Rob L]

Originally Posted by packs

I"m not doubting the ability or possibility to move your hand, I'm doubting that the body language of the player in the T202 photo suggests the outcome shown in the newspaper photo. I know your reputation for photo identification and I don't mean to question or challenge your ability or put down the opinions of others. I just want to make that clear. All I'm trying to do is put my opinions out there and talk about what I see.

Since you adamant hat this is not the same play, it's time for you to show evidence that it is not. The photographic evidence points more to the same play than less. If your evidence is mainly the hand position, then it shoots holes in your opinion. Move your hand from your waist to your face. It takes a split second. Plus the angle of the photos means the hand movement is less than a waist to face distance. Please show us the evidence, photographically, can't be the same play.