So what was the big meeting all about last night at the national with JP & Marshall?

[barrysloate]

Mark- how can you ban a card doctor who works out of his basement? He never was a part of the mainstream hobby, and maybe has never even shown his face to collectors. So what organization is going to stop guys like this? Only the grading services can by identifying and rejecting his altered cards. But often the work is so good it can't be detected.

Any organization to clean up the hobby is great in theory. But I think it would be relatively powerless.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Mark- how can you ban a card doctor who works out of his basement? He never was a part of the mainstream hobby, and maybe has never even shown his face to collectors. So what organization is going to stop guys like this? Only the grading services can by identifying and rejecting his altered cards. But often the work is so good it can't be detected.

Any organization to clean up the hobby is great in theory. But I think it would be relatively powerless.

Or the auction houses by not taking their consignments.

[barrysloate]

Auction houses rarely turn down consignments.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Auction houses rarely turn down consignments.

QED. So it goes on and on.

[mark evans]

Barry--

No system is perfect. If there are card doctors so skilled that their work cannot be detected by expert graders, so be it. But what can be achieved through an association is to ensure that participating grading services maintain the necessary expertise to identify alterations so much as possible and operate in an ethical manner by avoiding card doctors and those complicit with card doctors where feasible.

The power of an association is derived from its members. Thus, it can only be as effective as its members wish. But, it seems to me that there is a two-fold purpose for dealers to operate ethically: the salutary business purpose of cultivating and maintaining effective customer relations, and to try to avoid finding themselves in the cross-hairs of law enforcement.

Mark

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by mark evans

The power of an association is derived from its members. Thus, it can only be as effective as its members wish. But, it seems to me that there is a two-fold purpose for dealers to operate ethically: the salutary business purpose of cultivating and maintaining effective customer relations, and to try to avoid finding themselves in the cross-hairs of law enforcement.

Mark, are you aware who was in that room discussing such an association? If the tables weren't bolted down they'd have been stolen.

[barrysloate]

I certainly agree that the grading services should implement the highest possible level of detection, but if you asked them how they are doing I'm sure they will tell you they hardly miss anything. Do you think they will say they're missing a lot and have to do a much better job?

[murcerfan]

It really is best for everyone if the Fox is put in charge of watching the Henhouse.

I'd guess the rest of the meeting was Marshall doing his Columbo impersonation while JP faked histerical laughter and slapped him on the back.

[Thrill-of-the-Hunt]

very funny! "tables would be stolen"

[dstudeba]

Originally Posted by BCauley

I was planning on going to the show this weekend but we just moved, have a little league baseball field about 60 yards from our back door, and my three year old just got his first wiffle ball and bat and loves being on the field with them so I'm taking a pass. My first national visit will have to wait.

You sir are a very wise man, enjoy!

[mark evans]

You guys are tough.

As I say, the system will only work where its members cede authority to the association to establish and enforce a strict code of ethics. We can only hope and assume that the alleged impending indictments will put the fear of God in those individuals who need it in order to operate ethically.

I don't think the grading companies need to acknowledge their shortcomings in order to benefit from participation in the association. Again, as the general public becomes more aware of fraud in the hobby, I think it will behoove the companies to be able to advertise that they are subject to stringent standards of expertise and operation enforced by an objective body.

[bigtrain]

The actual, genuine and all original table from the 2010 National Convention in Baltimore where the now famous "meeting of the masterminds" took place. Signed by J.P. Cohen, Marshall Fogel and many of the other luminaries who took part in this historic meeting which led to the creation of... nothing. A priceless artifact of the hobby. Impossible to estimate the value of this one of a kind piece of cheap furniture. No reserve.

[Peter_Spaeth]

So what's going to happen Mark dealers are going to turn over their books and records to an association, or make them available for inspection? The owner of SGC is going to sell if the association decides he has a conflict of interest? The grading services are going to submit to inspections? How does this work?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

The actual, genuine and all original table from the 2010 National Convention in Baltimore where the now famous "meeting of the masterminds" took place. Signed by J.P. Cohen, Marshall Fogel and many of the other luminaries who took part in this historic meeting which led to the creation of... nothing. A priceless artifact of the hobby. Impossible to estimate the value of this one of a kind piece of cheap furniture. No reserve.

The price on the table is 75K -- but for you I'll sell it for 72.5K because after all, I've got 70K into it.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by mark evans

You guys are tough.

As I say, the system will only work where its members cede authority to the association to establish and enforce a strict code of ethics. We can only hope and assume that the alleged impending indictments will put the fear of God in those individuals who need it in order to operate ethically.

Mark,

If you re-read the original email, there was no mention of any intent to establish or enforce any code of ethics. There is no mention of doing anything to clean up the hobby nor "operate ethically."

The intent is to figure out a way to maintain the status quo. They are worried about reputations and financial consequences.

That's a very different goal than you are hoping for.



"Marshall emphasized to me that this meeting is important in combating the national consequences that are about to occur causing damage to the reputation and the past financial successes of our industry."

[JasonL]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

Mark,
"Marshall emphasized to me that this meeting is important in combating the national consequences that are about to occur causing damage to the reputation and the past financial successes of our industry."

is: "combating the national consequences"
this suggests an overaching structural change of some sort, and one that could be met on some field of battle with some tactic...

also, how do you "damage...PAST financial successes"? perhaps they are finding that the hobby's biggest collectors amassed their amazing collections with the use of PEDs, and will have an asterisk placed by their names going forward?

[mark evans]

Back to basics: I don't wish to set myself up as defending the individuals who held the meeting, none of whom I know. My point is a larger one, that I think the concept of an association is viable. It would obviously need to include virtually all of the major companies that are generally perceived as operating in an ethical manner. If they do not see it as in their best interests to participate, leaving only companies of dubious reputation, no one is going anywhere.

Peter's questions raise a level of detail that would need to be worked out during the development of the association. I think the potential answer to all is "yes."

[Matt]

Originally Posted by JasonL

also, how do you "damage...PAST financial successes"?

By confiscating funds or property that were gained through illegal actions.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by JasonL

perhaps they are finding that the hobby's biggest collectors amassed their amazing collections with the use of PEDs, and will have an asterisk placed by their names going forward?

Anyone that used credit cards, loans or lines of credit instead of cash to purchase cards for their registry sets will have an asterisk assigned next to the respective set or sets and registry points will be docked accordingly in accordance to the severity of the occurrences within each set.

[Butch7999]

Yes indeed, entities with a vested interest, acting in collusion, to form a self-regulating monopoly whose rulings can not be challenged, is always the best way to ensure integrity...

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Butch7999

Yes indeed, entities with a vested interest, acting in collusion, to form a self-regulating monopoly whose rulings can not be challenged, is always the best way to ensure integrity...

LOL!
Oh! Don't worry! They intend to charge a big application/membership fee. That will keep out the riff-raff.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

LOL!
Oh! Don't worry! They intend to charge a big application/membership fee. That will keep out the riff-raff.

Or keep them in, depending on your POV.

[FUBAR]

Maybe all the masterminds could sign a document !!! but whom would be able to authenticate it?

If those are masterminds, then i must be a pure F**kin Genius!!

[tbob]

Here's a taste of what might have been discussed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vYrj...eature=related

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by tbob

Here's a taste of what might have been discussed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vYrj...eature=related

I turned it off after hearing the phrase "investment portfolio" repeated approximately 12 times...............so it was about two minutes in.

[teetwoohsix]

Wow. Watching that youtube clip just now made me feel like I was at a stock investment seminar

[Griffins]

that seems about as far away from the spirit of Lionel Carter as you could get.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by Griffins

that seems about as far away from the spirit of Lionel Carter as you could get.

That's for sure. The stock investment seminar comparison was dead on too. I can't imagine spending an hour and watching all six parts of this thing. I must not have gotten the memo about when they changed collecting baseball cards from a hobby to building an investment portfolio.

[J.McMurry]

While watching this video, it quit playing and this message flashed up.

[Vintagedegu]

-

[tbob]

+1

[GoldenAge50s]

Must have been a REALLY secret meeting! 80+ posts and nobody has any idea what went on or even if there WAS a meeting!

[slidekellyslide]

It's probably not too hard to guess what went on.

Getting their stories straight.

[calvindog]

As reported earlier on the thread, a relatively large sum of money was requested from each of the dealers/auction house principles who were present; from what I was told, there was great (silent) laughter in response.

[GoldenAge50s]

I think both your replies sum it up quite perfectly!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

As reported earlier on the thread, a relatively large sum of money was requested from each of the dealers/auction house principles who were present; from what I was told first-hand, there was great (silent) laughter in response.

Uh, that would be auction house PRINCIPALS, counselor. Of course you were confused because they are all men of great principles.

[calvindog]

Ha! No, I meant that each of the principles had to pay: sloth, greed, shill bidding, Frank DiRoberto, deceptive listings, altering cards, stealing money from partners' bank accounts, you name it.

Jeepers, can you believe that I wrote such a thing? I'm such a dick who adds nothing to the board.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Jeepers, can you believe that I wrote such a thing? I'm such a dick who adds nothing to the board.

And a boor at the dinner table.

[calvindog]

Golly!

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I'd be curious to know if PSA president Joe Orlando hosted the traditional "Question and Answer Session" and if anything noteworthy was discussed or if there were any major announcements as has been the case in prior luncheons.

I find it odd that no one on the CU/PSA Board has even made mention of the event - which was usually not the case in past years.

Thanks in advance.

[4815162342]

I was there. The only question was about authenticating jerseys, which Joe said that PSA was going to start doing soon.

Originally Posted by 4815162342

I was there. The only question was about authenticating jerseys, which Joe said that PSA was going to start doing soon.

Really This is not what I "heard" happened. All that over Jerseys

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Only one question - that's interesting.

Thanks again for the update.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Pup6913

Really This is not what I "heard" happened. All that over Jerseys

The answer about jerseys was in response to a question about PSA's annual luncheon, not the Wednesday night meeting.

[iggyman]

Thought I would include this link in here for prosperity (just in case man-kind is completely wiped-out by aliens, at least "they" (the aliens) might stumble across this thread and realize which of the two sexes was more intelligent (oh, and in the event that a male alien is reading this; please see Rob D.'s Helen Reddy post in the women thread for the answer).

http://mddailyrecord.com/maryland-bu...rs-convention/

If you don't want to read it, here is the jist.................Bill Huggins says Trade Association for Auction Houses only. I realize it's yesterdays news, but I could live with that (as long as it doesn't cost me $$$ - yeah right!). Here is the quote:


Bill Huggins, of Huggins & Scott Auctions in Silver Spring, said business has been steady and that he’d bought and sold several select items already that day.

In response to the FBI investigation, he said one thing the industry could use is a national association. Since the first convention 30 years ago, he said sports collecting has gone from a hobby to a full-blown industry with no national oversight. He said forming a national association has been tried twice in the past but that coordinating thousands of dealers and collectors was no simple feat.

Huggins added it was likely a national association could be set up for auction houses, as it’s much easier to get the dozen or so across the country to agree on terms than it is to get thousands of dealers to reach a majority.


Lovely Day...

[Exhibitman]

Ah, yes, just as Sotheby's and Christie's agreed on terms. Er, on second thought, perhaps not quite like that...

U.S. Department of Justice Seal and Letterhead
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 5, 2000
WWW.USDOJ.GOV AT
(202) 514-2007
TDD (202) 514-1888


SOTHEBY'S AND FORMER TOP EXECUTIVE AGREE TO PLEAD GUILTY TO
PRICE FIXING ON COMMISSIONS CHARGED TO SELLERS AT AUCTIONS

Sotheby's Agrees to Pay $45 Million Criminal Fine

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Sotheby's Holdings Inc.--one of the world's largest auction houses--has agreed to plead guilty and pay a $45 million criminal fine for fixing the price of commission rates charged to sellers of art, antiques, and other collectibles at auctions, announced the Department of Justice today. The company's former president and chief executive officer, Diana D. Brooks, has also agreed to plead guilty to price fixing charges, and will cooperate with the Department's ongoing antitrust investigation.

In separate one-count felony charges filed today in the U.S. District Court in Manhattan, Sotheby's and Brooks were charged with participating in a conspiracy lasting more than six years, from April 1993 to December 1999, to suppress and eliminate competition by fixing prices in violation of the Sherman Act. The conspirators also agreed to limit or eliminate other inducements to sellers, such as interest-free loans and charitable donations.

Sotheby's and Christie's International, its chief competitor, control more than 90 percent of the world's auction business. They provide substantially the same services to sellers and, prior to the introduction of the fixed, non-negotiable commission rates, they competed primarily on the basis of price, undercutting each other's offers to sellers. As a result of the conspiracy, sellers lost their principal bargaining tool.

"Those charged today were engaged in classic cartel behavior*price fixing, pure and simple," said A. Douglas Melamed, Acting Assistant Attorney General for the Antitrust Division. "These are serious crimes, and the Antitrust Division will prosecute them wherever they occur."

Today's cases, the first to arise out of a federal investigation into auction house collusion, charge that Sotheby's, Brooks and their co-conspirators carried out the conspiracy by participating in meetings and conversations in the United States and elsewhere to discuss sellers' commissions. At those meetings the conspirators:

* agreed to raise pricing by fixing sellers' commissions;

* agreed to publish non-negotiable sellers' commission rate schedules;

* agreed to the order in which each co-conspirator would publish its non-negotiable sellers' commission schedule;

* issued sellers' commission schedules in accordance with the agreements reached;

* exchanged customer information for the purpose of monitoring and enforcing adherence to the non-negotiable seller's commission schedules;

* agreed not to make interest-free loans on consignments from sellers; and

* agreed not to make charitable contributions as part of pricing to sellers.

This pricing scheme impaired the ability of sellers to achieve the best price terms through negotiation, as had been possible under the conspirators' previous commission structures.

The Department also confirmed the announcement by Christie's International, one of the world's largest auction houses, that it has been cooperating with the investigation under the Antitrust Division's Corporate Leniency Program. Under the Leniency Program, a company may qualify for protection from criminal prosecution if it voluntarily reports its involvement in a crime and satisfies certain other criteria.

Sotheby's and Brooks are charged with violating Section One of the Sherman Act which carries a maximum fine of $10 million for corporations, and a maximum penalty of three years imprisonment and a $350,000 fine for individuals. The maximum fine for both corporations and individuals may be increased to twice the gain derived from the crime or twice the loss suffered by the victims of the crime, if either of those amounts is greater than the statutory maximum fine.

Sotheby's $45 million fine, which is payable over five years, is subject to court approval. Brooks' sentence will be determined by the court.

Sotheby's Holdings Inc. is headquartered in New York, New York and provides auction services worldwide. Its revenues from sellers' commissions during the period charged in the court papers were in excess of $225 million in the U.S.

The ongoing investigation of the auction business is being conducted by the Antitrust Division's New York Office and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Anyone with information concerning collusion in the auction business should contact the Antitrust Division's New York Office at (212) 264-0650 or the New York Office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation at (212) 384-1000.

[calvindog]

Very simple way to accomplish this: all bidders and auction houses would agree to open their bidding records to an independent auditor for review. Also, all IP info from all computers which placed bids would also be disclosed. Sounds unweildly (and it might be) but it's at least a start in combatting shill bidding.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Very simple way to accomplish this: all bidders and auction houses would agree to open their bidding records to an independent auditor for review. Also, all IP info from all computers which placed bids would also be disclosed. Sounds unweildly (and it might be) but it's at least a start in combatting shill bidding.

I must have missed something. Who, besides legitimate bidders, said they want to combat shill bidding?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Very simple way to accomplish this: all bidders and auction houses would agree to open their bidding records to an independent auditor for review. Also, all IP info from all computers which placed bids would also be disclosed. Sounds unweildly (and it might be) but it's at least a start in combatting shill bidding.

And how do you propose to combat the real problem, card doctoring?

[calvindog]

That's a tougher nut to crack, for sure.