Revisiting the T206 Wagner "strip"

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

1....Wagner's collar is Blue, while the collars of Brown, Bowerman and Kling ARE NOT Blue ?

Wagners collar is not blue. Here is a side by side comparison of the strip collar and a complete image.



What appears to be blue on the strip collar is shading in the art work. If you look closely at the complete image you will see this shading under the blue. All of the collars on the strip are missing the blue ink.

[tedzan]

So, again I ask....why are not the collars of Brown, Bowerman and Kling the same as Wagner ?

And, can you please explain the other two anomalies I questioned ?


TED Z

[GoSoxBoSox]

Ted,

Good questions that I have no answer for.

You say these 6 colors were applied in layers as follows:

YELLOW
BLACK
BROWN
BLUE
DARK GREEN
RED


Can you tell me why (1) If that is the color sequence how did Brown and Kling get a RED background when they did not yet have BLUE collars yet?, and (2) How did Cy Young get a DARK GREEN background without yet having a BLUE jersey?

So much for your color sequencing.

Edited to add I think all of these points about color clearly show changes were made between the time this strip was made and production started. We would be short sighted to think this couldn't happen. That would account for all three of your points, Ted, and both of mine.

[parkerj33]

Ted,

I don't understand the printing process, but don't the plates (or something else) determine the "mask" of where the color actually falls on a particular color run? In other words, there is some sort of masking process which causes the red to be printed on the background only portion of kling and brown and a different mask prevents the other 5 colors from also being mixed into that background. Presumably the mask for the bowerman would also have a "hole" so the red bleeds through in the shape of the "B" in the boston uniform. Now, can't it be at least *plausible* that the masks used in preparing this 5 card strip (assuming for a moment its a single strip - not individual cards) were pre-production or in some way not yet setup to print the colors as we know them today? I don't see why thats a technical impossibility. maybe they hadn't yet finalized the masks for each color run at the time they made this strip. heck...they may have just cobbed together 5 plates of players they thought would make a compelling argument to honus - for just this test run. Then in the real press runs (all with proper masks) the plates were actually printed on different sheets with different "neighbors". I am an engineer and we make prototype and "checksample" runs prior to production to uncover anomolies, production inefficiencies, bugs, and provide these as pre-production marketing units to get customers interested, etc, so the concept seems perfectly feasible.

By the way, I am not questioning anyone's knowledge, and I've never seen it in person. Just trying to understand how the knowledge of the printing process makes it implausible that it is a single strip printed together.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by tedzan

So, again I ask....why are not the collars of Brown, Bowerman and Kling the same as Wagner ?

The collars of the other three have an underlying color of gray or white and Wagner's is black. The color blue would have been applied over what we see on the strip. The dark shading the left side of Browns color shows through the blue on a complete card as does the shading on Bowerman and Kling.

[tedzan]

Tom P

Regarding your......
" Can you tell me why (1) If that is the color sequence how did Brown and Kling get a RED background when they
did not yet have BLUE collars yet? "

You are making my case with this statement of yours, that these are individual images. The Blue ink application
was simply omitted. I have had T206's with the Blue color missing and others with the Red color missing.


" (2) How did Cy Young get a DARK GREEN background without yet having a BLUE jersey? "

Check again.....CYoung in the strip has background color that is a pale Green.


Regarding changes by American Litho. in their color sequencing....they used this 6-color sequence since 1895 when
this Litho. Company was founded.


TED Z

[GoSoxBoSox]

Ted,

I guess I just don't understand what you're getting at with your three points? Because your three points along with my two points simply tell me that changes were made to the design of the cards between the time the cards on this strip were designed and the final cards were designed.

To me, that accounts for this entire color issue.

Tom

Edited to add that I checked and the green's look the same to me no matte rhow many times I look. Besides, the shades of color aren't the issue here. The timing of art designs is the issue.

[Al C.risafulli]

Part of what i do for a living is buy printing. I am not a printer, I am a customer of printers. I release artwork to a printer every day of my life, and i have done so for the last six years.

Given that each of the people who I have spoken with at have actually held this sheet in its raw form have stated that it's a continuous strip, and each of those people is more knowledgeable about cards than me, I tend to believe them.

In terms of the colors and whatnot, that is fairly easily explained, IMO, as some sort of pre production press sheet. Im sure that there were many of these made before the final art was approved, and it certainly wouldn't have been difficult for someone to slice off a row of five of them and give them to a friend, after all, in 1909 these were just cigarette pack stiffeners and not six figure pieces of American history.

Al

[Peter_Spaeth]

Ted wrote
"Tim C.

Those "guidelines" you referred to are simply printer's cutting marks found on most sheets (or strips)."

So doesn't that suggest that it is indeed an intact strip and not 5 cards glued together?

[mkdltn]

I believe there are more than six colors and that there are nine. eight colors plus a key. The key being the halftone image base on a photograph or ink drawing.

I have progressive proof books of cigar labels made by ALC contemporary in time frame with the T206. I will post some of the pages. the color anomolies are entirely explainable. Everything I see really points to this being a proof. it must have been done during the proving phase of production, more specifically on the top floor of the ALC building.

The way the color anomolies can be explained is as follows:

The artwork for each color was executed on stones or metal plates.
a separate one for each. When a proof was run each color was run one over the other through a proof press for my ALC cigar labels it went like this:

yellow (opaque)
red (opaque)
light brown (transparent)
Dark brown I think mostly opaque
Buff- this is the flesh color in the faces
light blue transparent
Dark blue (mostly opaque)
pink-transparent
lake or sometimes called medium red
finally Grey
And in the case of my cigar labels gold-think gold border cards.

In the case of the T206 card the color order is I believe a bit different due to the use of the Halftone image being used for the dark and midtone aspect of the image, at least in the portraits.

some inks were transparent meaning the color below showed through

Now what if you ran each color through the press before the artist was done?

the first picture (Proof1) is the first page of the proof book, technically the last as the book was compiled from back to front, This image is in my opinion is analogous to the proof strip, It does not match the production image. this was run before the corrections were made to the image. This is what I love about my proof books is that the image in front is very very unique.

The second picture (Proof2) is the original Lake plate run in black with the a printer's note in pencil saying what material needs to be added.

the third picture (Proof3) is from a second run in black ink which reflects the change that was made. this impression is glued into the book after the first black impression.

I hope this helps some as far as printing knowledge I am a graphic designer so I am somewhat familiar with modern techniques in printing. Not printer knowledge but enough. This is what started me on this whole thing, I saw the high res cards on the LOC site and was absolutley amazed at what I was looking at and HAD to find out how these were printed. As my wife will attest to this has become my obsession for the last two years and am satisfied that I now have a pretty darn good grasp of how 19th century lithography was done.

[Al C.risafulli]

Outstanding post.

Al

[GoSoxBoSox]

Originally Posted by mkdltn

Everything I see really points to this being a proof. it must have been done during the proving phase of production, more specifically on the top floor of the ALC building.

You wrote alot about the process ALC used but what is it about this specific Wagner proof strip that makes you feel this is a proof? and do you think it's a "proof strip"? Why or why not?

Good stuff.

[Matt]

So T206s were the result of a 9 color printing process. We learn something new about the issue every day it seems.
Fascinating post.

[mkdltn]

Several things first the presence of the proof marks, when the image from the original stone or plate was transferred to the larger production stone or plate the proof marks were removed from the transfers.

transfers: when the art on the original stone was done it was etched and inked with transfer ink then was printed on to a transfer paper (a paper sized with some time of gelatin surface) This was done multiple times and applied face down to the large stone in perfect alighnment to one another which is a whole other story.

If you look closely at the high res Bowerman card on LOC and look at the right side you will see that the register mark on the pink transfer was not removed.

2. I think comments have been made on the vivid colors which is indicitive of an image that has not "suffered" through the transfer process and the wear associated with a large press run. It looks like something run from the original art stone or plate.

3. Another aspect is the dead on register. This was likely run by one person on a small press, one small sheet at a time.

4. The last is the color anomolies. This looks to be an image in prototype phase just like the first image in the proof books.

What makes me think this is a continuous proof strip?

mostly to me It simply looks like a duck.......