1919 Reds Pennant

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by baseballart

Mark

I have no expertise in pennants (and in little else, for that matter). One point on the pennant is that the auctioneer was also offering a beat up copy of Ellard's Baseball in Cincinnati, 1908. This probably doesn't amount to much, but could be an indication they came from a collection of that era (conversely, I guess they could have come from someone who purchased both in 1980).

Edited to add: looking at that Babe Ruth pennant would certainly give me pause before I bid on the Reds one.

Max

That is a positive sign... but not iron-clad evidence of authenticity, as you say. Could just be consigned from a Reds collector who bought the pennant on faith...

If the 1919 Reds Pennant is good, then someone should jump on that Ruth Pennant (a real bargain by comparison!)

[murphusa]

the Yankees did not have numbers on their 1928 Uniforms

[GoldenAge50s]

Good catch Murph, and I think the Ruth pennant is not even close to the Cincy pennant in finished quality, however crude that the Cincy is.

[rhettyeakley]

They both look terrible and artificial to me. It looks like the stencilling was done yesterday and the wear is a little over the top. Red flags all over the place. I hope nobody here paid too much for that Reds pennant.
-Rhett

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by GoldenAge50s

Good catch Murph, and I think the Ruth pennant is not even close to the Cincy pennant in finished quality, however crude that the Cincy is.

Regarding the Ruth and the 1919 Reds Pennants... Look closer...

The overall style of the pennants, the shape of both (stubby- not elongated), the thin felt, the stenciled font style (every letter matches up), the stars, and even the red felt strip on the left side are all the same. When have you ever seen other pennants like this with identical font and stenciled stars, combined with a poorly applied central image (that is neither stenciled or screened on like the remainder of the pennant).

If you propped up the Ruth Pennant (at a more direct angle to the camera), the shape would be identical to the 1919 Reds. It is laying flatter in the photo, thus skewing the shape a bit. Other known pennants of the era are more elongated than these matching examples. Look at the stenciled lettering. The "H" is crossed 3/4 towards the top on both examples. The "R"s are identical. So are the "N"s and the "A"s and the "E"s... all identical in style.

Now that Murphusa has exposed the 1928 Ruth as being a fake/fantasy piece (based on the "3" on his back)... I do not envy the guy who spent over $3K on the 1919 Reds Pennant. I would be extremely nervous, as these two pennants are far too similar not to be related.

And what are the odds that both would pop up on ebay around the same time? In the past 20 years, why have no others (of this distinct style) ever been featured in ANY of the major Catalogue Auctions? Way too coincidental for my taste...

If the winning bidder of the Reds Pennant is reading this, you might want to file a dispute before it's too late. Ebay has an excellent new Buyer Protection Program that can effectively protect you.

Hope this is helpful.

[ctownboy]

Honestly, how HARD is it to just sew something half assed, put some ink stamps on it and let it sit in the sun and fade for a while?

Both my Grand Mother and my Mother can sew and I think they could replicate these pieces fairly easily. Just find some old material, go to an art store and buy some ink stamps, assemble quickly, set in sun for a couple of weeks and, voila, instant "folk art".

If I knew they wouldn't be racked with guilt for doing so, I might suggest they try this and see how much they could supplement their monthly income.....

David

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Honestly, how HARD is it to just sew something half assed, put some ink stamps on it and let it sit in the sun and fade for a while?

Both my Grand Mother and my Mother can sew and I think they could replicate these pieces fairly easily. Just find some old material, go to an art store and buy some ink stamps, assemble quickly, set in sun for a couple of weeks and, voila, instant "folk art".

If I knew they wouldn't be racked with guilt for doing so, I might suggest they try this and see how much they could supplement their monthly income.....

David

Completely agree... too bad some people don't feel that type of guilt, or share those morals. Here's an authentic example that cannot so easily be replicated by "Grandma"...

[barrysloate]

I don't like the looks of it either- I think it's fake- but I did like Rhett's use of the term "red flags all over on this one." Cincinnati Reds flags?

[gratefuldog3]

Wow, All I can say is where the hell were you guys before the auction ended? I haven't even opened the package yet. I'm still working. I want you to know that I honestly believe the seller is an honest person who has made a large mistake. I too made a bad call... I guess?? If it was as advertised, I would have paid more. What can I say? F@*^@CK me!! I'm making a phone call as soon as I get home. What a disappointment...Scott

[gratefuldog3]

Me again, I just got home from a perfect day of hell at work to find three missed calls from the seller. As I was listening to my messages, he called again. He has read the thread and is as concerned as I am. Being a stand up guy he has already refunded my Paypal account, and wants me to open the package and take a peek. He's giving me the time I need to make a logical decision.Really, what else could I ask for? It would be great if all the bad talk about this guy would stop. He has been nothing but reasonable from the beginning. He even refused to end the auction early! I tried and I know one of you who have posted here offered him 1800.00 to do the same. Which I'm confused by, for obvious reasons. I do appreciate this thread. It's just a shame it didn't start until after I dropped the bomb. Oh well, no harm done. In review, seller did the right thing. I'm glad that for once my hunch in a person was correct.

[slidekellyslide]

That's great that the guy refunded right away...still it's very hard to understand this garage sale story unless the guy at the garage sale was selling it for higher than garage sale prices and he was the one pulling the scam. I still think this should be followed up...you have two on ebay from different sellers, one at the National and one in a Huggins and Scott auction last year, yet all of them were likely made by the same person.

edited to add: I am not the person posting on this thread that tried to get the auction ended early...just in case anyone was wondering. My first view of the pennant was when the auction was posted in this thread.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by gratefuldog3

Me again, I just got home from a perfect day of hell at work to find three missed calls from the seller. As I was listening to my messages, he called again. He has read the thread and is as concerned as I am. Being a stand up guy he has already refunded my Paypal account, and wants me to open the package and take a peek. He's giving me the time I need to make a logical decision.Really, what else could I ask for? It would be great if all the bad talk about this guy would stop. He has been nothing but reasonable from the beginning. He even refused to end the auction early! I tried and I know one of you who have posted here offered him 1800.00 to do the same. Which I'm confused by, for obvious reasons. I do appreciate this thread. It's just a shame it didn't start until after I dropped the bomb. Oh well, no harm done. In review, seller did the right thing. I'm glad that for once my hunch in a person was correct.

I never posted anything bad specifically about the seller... just the item! I think he is probably a stand-up guy who was guilty only of being a trusting soul. He likely had no reason (or the necessary expertise) not to believe the person from which he acquired the pennant. The only thing he is guilty of is a bit of naivety and perhaps negligence (given the supposed high-ticket item he was selling). I wish every seller would go to the detail he did, regarding his description. The problem is not so much the seller, as it is the people feeding this deceiving material into the marketplace. It's kind of analogous to the illegal drug trade...

I am sorry we couldn't get you the necessary insight sooner, and draw these conclusions before the action closed. I could never see the photos on ebay (just red X's appeared) and a friend (Mike H.) had to email me the photo personally. So I saw it late in the game. If you look at my first post within this thread, you will see that I was just a bit leary at the start, and became convinced of its un-authenticity as the evidence mounted. Seeing the span between 1927 and 1958 really clinches the fact that these were made to commemorate "monumental" subject matter (way after the fact).

There is no way that these similarities (felt, materials, stenciling, font, stars, shape, red strip, etc.) would all be identical over a 31 year stretch. This isn't shocking... this has been going on with ad signs, broadsides, fans, and even card reprints for a long time (Max - I think you are the safest of us all, with vintage books!)

Anyway, I am sorry this info came out later than ideal, but at least I believe we helped you in the end. It is great that this seller has issued the PayPal credit so promptly. On a wider scope, I hope we've enlightened other collectors, so perhaps fewer people will be duped in the future. To me, that's what this forum is all about. I know that many people here have helped me on numerous occasions (and that's what makes this such a great resource!)

Thanks,
Mark