Fro Joy Babe Ruth Cards

[fkw]

PSA needs to STOP grading these, they seem to grade the fakes very often.

The PSA-5 graded card in Greg's post (slidding) posted above is a bit different that known authentic cards (link I posted above to a sheet obtained with original envelop and premium)
If you compare the images, the PSA-5 card lacks clarity and has contrast issues. Also the first line on description end in "Babe on the sheet, while this PSA-5 card has "Babe" ... with 2 quote (") marks.


another example of boneheaded PSA screwing up... (blue tint cards are ALL fakes, let alone ones with extremely bad contrast)



PS. Another strange thing is the SGC example above is missing the dotted line (cut line) on the wide left border, its wide enough that the dotted line should show.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Here's a previous thread: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...t=1928+fro+joy

Are the two Fro Joys pictured at the end of that thread authentic? The thread stated the small reverse border should be solid, no gaps at the corners, yet those two were pictured at the end as if authentic.

I personally think they stopped grading them because some counterfeits got holdered.

Maybe PSA should stop grading W516's too: http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-W-UNC-Tris-...item5641b17b91

[Clutch-Hitter]

Authentic or not? This card has not been sent to a grading company:

[Leon]

Hey Greg
I have never seen one that I thought was real have those dots on the borders. I have certainly been wrong on these before but do think I get it correct most of the times. At minimum it was hand cut from one of those full sheets. For the several I have ever seen graded and slabbed none have had those "dots" borders. I am going to lean as not authentic but not 100% on it. If you have it in hand does the paper have uneven gloss, even gloss, or no gloss? Does the paper feel smooth or rough? Those attributes can help identify it....

[Clutch-Hitter]

I bought it, received it, held it, deemed it counterfeit, received a refund with shipping. The seller would not provide his return address so I could send it back, although he would've had to send money for return shipping, or better yet come get it himself!

It was listed as being sold from Miss but shipped from just south of my location in Alabama.

The seller claimed he had it for many years.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Clutch-Hitter

I bought it, received it, held it, deemed it counterfeit, received a refund with shipping. The seller would not provide his return address so I could send it back, although he would've had to send money for return shipping, or better yet come get it himself!

It was listed as being sold from Miss but shipped from just south of my location in Alabama.

The seller claimed he had it for many years.

I think many of these types of reprints, cutouts, fakes etc.....originated in the early 1980's....so he definitely could have had it for 20+ years. I think the one you showed was definitely cut from a sheet and the real sheets are very scarce. I would go with your opinion on this one..... regards

[vintagecpa]

I would love to hear more information about a plate that was found and additional cards were printed after 1928. I wonder how many other plates exist from other issues.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hey Greg
I have never seen one that I thought was real have those dots on the borders. I have certainly been wrong on these before but do think I get it correct most of the times. At minimum it was hand cut from one of those full sheets. For the several I have ever seen graded and slabbed none have had those "dots" borders. I am going to lean as not authentic but not 100% on it. If you have it in hand does the paper have uneven gloss, even gloss, or no gloss? Does the paper feel smooth or rough? Those attributes can help identify it....

The counterfeit I have is smooth. I'm not sure what to look for in the gloss. The paper is not 1928, definitely not 20's paper/cardboard.

While I think the scan looks good and a photo would look good, it's obviously a counterfeit when holding it in person. I'm going to get my camera out later and get some good close up shots in an effort to replicate those close ups of the texture in the older thread.

[Clutch-Hitter]

Here's a comparison with the Legendary Auctions card included:

Order left to right:
1. Legendary Auctions (from Frank's link)
2. Legendary Auctions with auto correct (because original had too much exposure)
3. Definitely Authentic
4. Reprint/Counterfeit

[IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG][IMG][/IMG][IMG]
Backs:

1. Legendary Auctions
2. Authentic
3. Reprint/Counterfeit

[IMG][/IMG][IMG][IMG][/IMG][/IMG]

If you have a known authentic, please post a scan/photo of the front and back.

[Leon]

Very recently (read in the last month or two) I have been the lucky collector to get involved with a few scenarios on quite a few different Fro Joys and their close cousins, the 1928 Babe Ruth Candy cards. While my good friend FKW (hey Frank) says he feels the fakes are easy to spot, I will politely disagree a bit. I have had 3-4 of these types of cards in my collection for years. A month or so ago a good friend, and very large ebay seller, asked me to take a look at some Babe Ruth Candy cards for him as one of the grading companies thought they weren't good and he had just bought them from a major auction. When I got them I thought they were a little suspicious feeling, not looking. I took them with me to have them looked at by my good friends at BVG and they agreed with the other grading company, not good. Now, they couldn't say 100% but they did say that they were not comfortable enough with them to slab them. At the same time 2 of my 3 cards that were looked at, that had been in my collection for many years, were deemed not good also. The Fro Joys and 1928 Babe Ruth Candy cards are extremely difficult to tell fakes from real ones, on many occasions. There are all sorts of levels of "correctness" to them. Some look really bad *(even colored, which no real ones are) and some are really good looking fakes. These 2 series really should be dealt with extremely carefully by anyone in the hobby, experienced or novice. If I have some time I will do some scans later and do a show and tell...One thing to point out...when all else fails in the id'ing of these, the paper quality is usually the deciding factor. However, that being said, I now believe there is a possibility that each series was printed, from date of origin, on different types of paper. In thinking a bit more, I would probably advise against very new hobbyists collecting them unless they are pedigreed somehow. Buying either series raw would be a set up for a let down ......just my 3 cents on the subject.

[Oldtix]

Originally Posted by Leon

Very recently (read in the last month or two) I have been the lucky collector to get involved with a few scenarios on quite a few different Fro Joys and their close cousins, the 1928 Babe Ruth Candy cards. While my good friend FKW (hey Frank) says he feels the fakes are easy to spot, I will politely disagree a bit. I have had 3-4 of these types of cards in my collection for years. A month or so ago a good friend, and very large ebay seller, asked me to take a look at some Babe Ruth Candy cards for him as one of the grading companies thought they weren't good and he had just bought them from a major auction. When I got them I thought they were a little suspicious feeling, not looking. I took them with me to have them looked at by my good friends at BVG and they agreed with the other grading company, not good. Now, they couldn't say 100% but they did say that they were not comfortable enough with them to slab them. At the same time 2 of my 3 cards that were looked at, that had been in my collection for many years, were deemed not good also. The Fro Joys and 1928 Babe Ruth Candy cards are extremely difficult to tell fakes from real ones, on many occasions. There are all sorts of levels of "correctness" to them. Some look really bad *(even colored, which no real ones are) and some are really good looking fakes. These 2 series really should be dealt with extremely carefully by anyone in the hobby, experienced or novice. If I have some time I will do some scans later and do a show and tell...One thing to point out...when all else fails in the id'ing of these, the paper quality is usually the deciding factor. However, that being said, I now believe there is a possibility that each series was printed, from date of origin, on different types of paper. In thinking a bit more, I would probably advise against very new hobbyists collecting them unless they are pedigreed somehow. Buying either series raw would be a set up for a let down ......just my 3 cents on the subject.

Does anyone know the back story on when and who produced the Fro-Joy fakes? Were they done for some purpose other than to defraud?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Oldtix

Does anyone know the back story on when and who produced the Fro-Joy fakes? Were they done for some purpose other than to defraud?

I think many of the early 1980's reprints, especially color ones, were NOT meant to defraud but just to be nice, inexpensive display pieces. Many, or most, of the black and white type reprints were probably meant to defraud.

One other hobby myth (maybe) is that there was an actual Fro Joy printing plate(s) found, much later in the hobby, and some cards were printed from it/them. Those were supposedly almost impossible to tell from the originals and that is the (supposed) reason grading companies wouldn't slab any of them. I have never seen that story be verified but the story has been around for years. Collectors need to be wary of all of these type cards even though some will be good. I do have some good ones but to say ALL of the fakes/reprints are easy to tell, would be a misnomer in my opinion. Actually, according to the head graders at 2 of the top 3 grading companies, they can be difficult to discern. best regards