Beware Carterscards2006

[DICKTOWLE]

Trying to understand, the seller bought a collection of cards, this one was a GAI holder and you broke it out and sent to SGC, and it came back trimmed. If this was the case, how can you fault the seller of the card- afterall he bought this card as a 7.5 correct in good faith, then sold it in good faith. I believe there is no case ?,.

[jb217676]

My only beef with Carterscards2006 is they block Canadian bidders. I hate sellers that do that!

[ctownboy]

Mr. Towle,

I disagree.

If the buyer bought the card as a GAI 7.5, sent it off and it came back an SGC 60 (or PSA 6 or whatever) then I would say tough nookums (as I do about the Banks card above).

However, if the card went out as a GAI 7.5 and came back as an SGC "A" because of trimming then I think there is a huge problem.

To me, there shouldn't be much difference between one grade (a 6 to a 7 or a 7 to a 6). Differences like that can be chalked up to experience and expertise of the grader, how many cards they have graded that day, etc, etc, etc. However, the difference between a card being graded a 7.5 (based on it being a complete card) and it being graded an "A" (because it has been trimmed) is two entirely different things.

If you bought a slightly used, late model Ferrari for $200,000 dollars (totally expecting it to have a 500 horsepower Ferrari engine in it for that price) and after receiving the car find it has a 300 horsepower Mustang engine under the hood, would YOU be happy? I wouldn't be and that is because the item I received was materially different then what I paid my money for and what I had expected to receive.

Doesn't matter if I am a Ferrari expert or not in this case.

Now, in my hypothetical situation, if my Ferrari mechanic says the car has the proper Ferrari engine but should have red valve covers instead of the blue ones currently on it, then I don't really have a basis for complaing too much.

In this case, the seller is putting their faith in GAI (from what I have read so far, not really a good idea). The faith that GAI could tell the difference between a complete, intact card and a trimmed card. When the buyer sent it off to SGC and they said the card was trimmed, then the buyer wants his money back based on what he received was not what he paid for. Should the buyer have been leery of a GAI card? Yes and that is why he sent it off for a second opinion (from a company he trusts more than GAI.

For those who don't like this then I will ask you a question. How many of you have bought cards graded by GAI or PRO (for far less than what they would have sold for if they were in an SGC or PSA slab and had the same grade) because you thought they were OK? How many of you then sent the cards to SGC or PSA and had them come back slabbed with a similiar grade (as to what GAI or PRO had graded them)?

If any of you have done this, have YOU refunded the profit you made from selling those cards (if you have sold them) to the seller you bought them from? I mean, THEY put their faith in GAI or PRO (by keeping them in their slabs instead of trying to cross them over) and were hurt because of those companies reputations. So, if you took advantage of this then shouldn't you refund some or all of the profit you made?

David

[pgellis]

I have to disagree with the above "Ferrari Analogy".

If you want to use your Ferrari analogy, it would be analogous to say that the seller of the Ferrari's mechanic says that it has a 500 horsepower engine and when you, the buyer, take it to your mechanic, your mechanic says it has a 300 horsepower engine. It comes down to which mechanic is right? Just like is it GAI or SGC?

Also, to go a little further you would have to prove that the seller knew it only had a 300 horsepower engine (if that is what is concluded) in the first place.

[bobbyw8469]

Ctownboy - I understand your side of the argument. I really do. The problem lies now in that (as some other poster before me stated beautifully), all sellers of GAI graded cards will be in a NO WIN situation. GAI cards sell for a tiny fraction of their SGC/PSA counterparts. If the cards cross, the buyer makes out like a bandit. He gets a card in a "supposedly" superior grading service case for a small fraction of the true amount. That amount could total thousands of dollars (like the OP's card in question). If the cards don't cross, then all they have to do is return it for a full refund (even though technically GAI is on the "approved 3rd part grader" list that Ebay has on file. It is a 100% reward situation with 0% risk for the buyer. That being said, why on god's green earth would ANY seller ever sell a GAI graded card ever again!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[carrigansghost]

ctownboy is totally off base. If I cannot tell a certain motor from another and I am a Mopar expert, I find it intersting that this would come up. Buy what you know or take your chances. Learn a lesson and move on.

Rawn

[ctownboy]

To all,

I am not rich and am not an expert in engines but, for arguments sake, let's say that I win the Powerball lottery Wednesday night and then have the money to spluge on a Ferrari (or, for Carrigansghost, a Hemi Cuda).

So, let's say that instead of going to Chicago (I live in Indianapolis and we don't have an authorized Ferrari dealership) to buy a Ferrari (or for Carrigan, I don't go to a Barrett Jackson auction). But, instead, I buy a car on line (the eBay listing states the year, model, mileage and any damage but leaves out the Ferrari has a Mustang engine or the listing says the Cuda has a certain VIN number which would indicate a Hemi engine but the car has had that engine switched out at some earlier time).

Now, let's say that I pay the price, receive the car and want to get it checked out just to make sure everything is humky dorry. What happens if at that time the mechanic informs me the car doesn't have the engine it should have and the one that I paid for? DO I just sit and take it or do I complain to the seller? What if the seller doesn't respond? DO I then NOT complain to eBay and try and get a refund?

Again, as a seller on eBay, I take pains to try and list everything I know about an item I am selling and try to put a clear picture in my listing. However, even then, sometimes things happen that I either miss some damage or don't describe something properly or something happens in transit. Either way, as the seller, I feel obligated to make things right with the buyer. Because if I don't, I know a mess like this might occur (which damages my business and reputation) AND there is the chance that eBay will step in and rule against me no matter what.

In this instance, Todd bought a card he wasn't quite sure about (the GAI 7.5 grade giving the implication that the card was a full card but the GAI history giving him some concerns). When said card came back from SGC as trimmed, thus confirming Todd's questions about the card, Todd wanted a refund. When seller doesn't offer a refund (or even respond) Todd comes on here to warn others.

Again, if the seller had only refunded Todd's money and gone on, NONE of this would have happened. Todd would have his money back, the seller would have his card back (to sell again OR go after GAI with) and they wouldn't have a negative Feed Back.

Now, it looks like, if Todd is correct, eBay is going to rule against Carterscards, they are going to have to give the money back, they have received a negative and their name has been dragged through the mud on a public forum. So, even if other people don't read this forum, all someone has to do is Google Carterscards and this thread is going to appear on the search list.

David

[mdschulze]

This thread has become more about the card, who graded it, what grade it received, blah, blah, blah... Let's forget the card for a minute and look at the basics: Buyer purchases an item and is unhappy, he then contacts the seller for a refund (which seems to be within a reasonable timeframe), thus far the seller hasn't issued a refund and now the buyer is upset.

I've bought and sold items on Ebay and I'll offer a refund to an unhappy buyer just out of moral obligation (both refunds I offered were damage to the items during shipping... once they sent me a photo of the damage, instant refund!). The question is how long can a buyer hold onto an item before they request a refund? If it's a product that can be used and damaged by neglect such as electronics, then the timeframe is shortened. In this case, it's a card in a plastic holder. I don't see any reason for the seller not to issue a refund, say within 45 days. I know the refund timeframe will differ from person to person but in this case it boils down to good business ethics and if nothing else... common courtesy. The seller will get the card back in the same condition he sold it in.... offer a second chance purchase to the next high bidder or relist! He'll still get around $1k for the card whether it's from Todd or from the next guy who wins it.

[bobbyw8469]

In this case, it's a card in a plastic holder. I don't see any reason for the seller not to issue a refund, say within 45 days

The problem with that, is that this WAS NOT a BIN, but rather an auction. What if the under bidder wanted a GAI card, and didn't win because the winning bidder wanted to play the "crackout game - let's get this into SGC holder and triple our money!". That is why most auction houses state NO RETURNS on graded cards, and I am in that camp as well. If I was the seller, I would not want to accept a return either.
Seller relists the card again, but because of so much negative publicity surrounding this card, this time it only sells for $500. Winning bidder pays, sends it to SGC for the upgrade, except this time SGC gives it an "88/7.5" same grade crossover. Now the card is worth the $3,000 and the seller only received $500. This card is going to be forever tainted as a 0% risk card for the buyer and a 100% liability for the seller. As long as the winning bidder submits it and it doesn't cross, he returns it for 100% refund. I am still not convinced the card is trimmed, as it was graded under the old GAI label when Mike Baker was looking at the cards....

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by DICKTOWLE

Trying to understand, the seller bought a collection of cards, this one was a GAI holder and you broke it out and sent to SGC, and it came back trimmed. If this was the case, how can you fault the seller of the card- afterall he bought this card as a 7.5 correct in good faith, then sold it in good faith. I believe there is no case ?,.

No, Dick. That's NOT correct. No one broke tha GAI card out of the holder. It went to SGC in the GAI holder. They looked at it, thought it may show evidence of trim, and returned it without busting it out.

Why is this fact so hard for anyone to understand?

[CMIZ5290]

Maybe todd should send it in to pro graders, he might get back a gem mint 10

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

No, Dick. That's NOT correct. No one broke tha GAI card out of the holder. It went to SGC in the GAI holder. They looked at it, thought it may show evidence of trim, and returned it without busting it out.

Why is this fact so hard for anyone to understand?

Our country's failing public-education system? Not enough emphasis placed on reading comprehension? Too many big words?

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's Schultz's fault, he's very inarticulate, even for a lawyer.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

Our country's failing public-education system? Not enough emphasis placed on reading comprehension? Too many big words?

HUH? What's that mean?

(No. Realy. What's it supposed to mean?)

[CMIZ5290]

I know one thing, i am going to get hot and heavy into buying gai, bvg, and pro graded t206s at ridiculous prices. I am then going to submit them to psa or sgc to at least try and cross them to a comparable grade. If they say evidence of trimming or alteration, i will promptly return them to the poor seller for a full refund. After collecting t206s for over 15 years, i have found a new, nothing-to-lose system. Thank you to all on this thread who have made me see the light, and the dollar$.

[jezzeaepi]

Nothing to lose except grading fees, shipping, and return shipping and all the associated insurance costs. Ebay wont let you return it if just not a good cross over grade, only if the cardr shows evidence of tampering. So thats going to get pretty expensive for you considering youll only be able to return them if they come back as being altered. Not to mention you will have a quickly dwindeling list of sellers that are willing to deal with you.

[CMIZ5290]

Jezz- wow, thanks for informing me. Your 15 total posts on net54 brings alot to the table.