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#1
02-03-2012, 11:40 AM
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David,
The fundamental difference nobody is paying Dan $5-50 bucks a whack for his opinion. The fact is that grading was designed to get rid of the uncertainty of grading amongst a population. Meaning in the old days there was learning curve when you bought cards. Some folks EX was VG at best others VG was EX etc. Heck I remember when I bought my first few cards from the Fritsch catalog described as EX they had creases and paper loss on some. LOL That was the problem. The good in theory business idea was to have a company take the guess work out of the buying and grading process thus leveling the field. Like I said a great theory but it will ever work because graders are people too. Meaning they will screw up, one guys Friday afternoon EX is another graders Monday morning VG. Inconsistency and graded fakes are in direct contrast with the entire business theory of why grading popped its head up in the first place. If we still have grades all over the place, trimmed cards in graded holders along with fake cards then one has to ask the question what value is being brought. That is what Dan is trying to say here IMO. I just like the holders they could label every card AUTH or AUTH-T for trimmed or AUTH-A for altered and that would be ok with me. Cheers, John P.S. Yes Dan missed the wrinkle on the right...heck it's even my old card LOL. Last edited by wonkaticket; 02-03-2012 at 11:52 AM. 
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#3
02-03-2012, 12:11 PM
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John
I agree with everything you said except the first sentence. You are right, nobody is paying Dan $5-50 for his opinion, they're paying him $1600. His opinion is that the card doesn't have any creases, when the fact is that it does. He missed a crease. It's not a big deal. We all do sometimes. I believe him to be an honest person. I don't think he's intentionally trying to mislead anybody and he'll probably fix the listing once he reads this. He obviously just overlooked it. All I am saying is that if he missed a crease that obvious on the Cobb card, who is to say that he didn't miss others on the cards he submitted to SGC? I just don't like the way he comes on here and insults those of us that do send cards to SGC by saying he feels sorry for us. Regards, David Edited to add: If he has a beef with SGC and wants to state it publically on this board, then that is his right. But when he starts insulting those of us that do send cards to SGC by telling us he feels sorry for us, then he's crossed the line (with me at least). Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 02-03-2012 at 12:15 PM.
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#4
02-03-2012, 12:47 PM
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David,
No excuses here....you also may not be aware that sometimes Dan's dad does a lot of the listings. Mr. McKee is one of my fav people in the hobby isn't a spring chicken anymore. Although you wouldn't be able to tell him that!  David that’s sort of the whole point I was trying to make. Say Dan did see the crease and says to him that card is EX then you know Dan is an over grader not unlike Fritsch was back in the day. So you sort of keep a running tally of how folks grade and take that into consideration when you do business with Dan or others. This exact process is what got complex and what the grading companies were in theory invented to get rid of. The problem is it’s just as subjective now as it has ever been. Then toss in the fact that there is even more upside for high grades compared to the old days and there is even more trimming and slimy stuff going on. Like I said great in theory but grading companies have far from delivered or protected us from ourselves to date. They have also fallen way short of the utopia that was to come from having 3rd parties involved. If anything it’s added an entire new facet of complexity to the hobby not simplified it. Cheers, John P.S. Dan buy your pop some new glasses will ya you cheap bastard. Last edited by wonkaticket; 02-03-2012 at 12:49 PM.
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#5
02-03-2012, 01:04 PM
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I have not noticed a drop in grading quality at SGC. I think Scott and others are still doing a fantastic job.
For the record, about half of my graded cards are in SGC holders and about half in PSA. Probably 80% of my vintage cards are raw. JimB
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#6
02-03-2012, 01:01 PM
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#7
02-03-2012, 01:12 PM
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John,
All that may be so, but one thing I know for sure is that his dad didn't make the statement, "I feel very sorry for all of you (that use a TPG)." He did. One can sugarcoat it however they want to, but that is an insult to those of us that use TPGs. In other words it would be like me saying, "T206s suck. I feel sorry for those of you that collect them." If I said that I would be roasted...and rightfully so. David Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 02-03-2012 at 01:14 PM.
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#8
02-03-2012, 01:18 PM
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David, I agree Dan can come off gruff…hell he is gruff.
 Look past the curmudgeon and I think he has some valid points that’s all. Cheers, John
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#9
02-03-2012, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Learn to grade what you collect, and don't rely on people that put fakes and trimmed cards in slabs. dan
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#10
02-03-2012, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
David, yes that Cobb card shows a crease in that scan, I will correct the scan, the card is currently crease free as I state. And yes, I can grade cards, I have been looking at them 42 years and have watched the grades change. How long have you been grading cards? And of course, I always accept returns and if you will notice, i didn't assign a grade to the Cobb. Jim Rivera saw the Brunswick find, I guess he can't grade cards either?? dan
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#12
02-03-2012, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
JimB
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#14
02-03-2012, 01:28 PM
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#15
02-03-2012, 01:26 PM
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David, I'd give it up. Dan's a good guy, and you have to have a bit of a thicker skin when you use TPG's. I still submit to PSA (the horrors!), and I have to look at Andrew's sig every time he posts, which currently is the following:
Maybe PSA stands for: "Please Submit Again" "Pretty Sh!tty Assesment" "Pretty Stinkin Awful" "Please Smoke Another" You can say that insults those who submit to PSA, but then again if PSA had better quality control, you can't say some of these comments aren't deserved.
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#16
02-03-2012, 01:30 PM
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I will apologize to David if he was insulted. I shouldn't be insulting him. He has a right to collect anyway he chooses.
I do have to ask David - Vintage Topps? Isn't that an oxymoron? I thought all Topps cards are considered shiny stuff. Just Kidding. P.S. I also added sharp corners and better color to the green Cobb. I bought some new fancy solution off of ebay that I poured on it and it worked wonders! Dan Last edited by danmckee; 02-03-2012 at 01:35 PM. Reason: spelling stuuuuffff
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#17
02-03-2012, 01:38 PM
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This is so confusing, so you pressed the Cobb and removed the crease but used the old scan ?
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#18
02-03-2012, 11:11 PM
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Quote:
Val
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#19
02-04-2012, 08:30 AM
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Just found the green T206 Cobb I have up on ebay and how depressing! There is a slight crease in it that I completely missed and I must not have rolled it out!
Bummer, I am not sure if that constitutes that I can't grade since I have 10,000+ positives on ebay but vintageshinystuffguy is right! There is a slight wrinkle in the card. I have to change my listing and get a better picture up. Ugh! thanks for the heads up though David. Dan
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#20
02-04-2012, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
The idea of soaking the card in water is widely seen as permissible to remove grime and paper but I don't like the idea of creases being rolled out and then not disclosed to the future buyer. Also, in another thread JManos mentions "what can I soak this in" suggesting that there is some chemical which might remove rust stains other than water? I'm a bit disturbed lately with the amount of doctoring being openly discussed in threads. Certainly better to be openly discussed than underground but I'd rather it not be happening. If you were joking about the crease rolling, pardon me, but maybe this is an opportunity to discuss whether people think crease rolling is acceptable. I vote no.
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