This looks interesting indeed

Peter_Spaeth · #1 02-21-2012, 07:33 PM

If the house, or an affiliate or employee, is bidding to win and not to run up max bids it can see (i.e., to shill), then I have no issue with it.

Jaybird · #2 02-21-2012, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If the house, or an affiliate or employee, is bidding to win and not to run up max bids it can see (i.e., to shill), then I have no issue with it.

The problem is one of intent and motive. Since we cannot judge intent and motive from where we sit (i.e., since we don't know these folks), the prudent thing to do would be for them to refrain from bidding altogether.

Also, bidding to win and then resell in their store lines their pockets. If they win, they get it at a discount (buyer's premium paid from one hand to the other). If they lose, they increase the buyer's premium paid on that lot to them.

Win-win = lose for bidder

Bugsy · #3 02-21-2012, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaybird

If they win, they get it at a discount (buyer's premium paid from one hand to the other). If they lose, they increase the buyer's premium paid on that lot to them.

This entire issue can be reduced to that single sentence.

It is also incredibly simple to remedy; don't bid on your own listings.

slidekellyslide · #4 02-21-2012, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If the house, or an affiliate or employee, is bidding to win and not to run up max bids it can see (i.e., to shill), then I have no issue with it.

I sell stuff on ebay for a few local guys...sometimes they bring me stuff that's pretty cool and I wouldn't mind having it....is it okay for me to create another ebay account and bid on that item? What if I don't win it and I'm the only other bidder? Is it still okay?

Jaybird · #5 02-21-2012, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I sell stuff on ebay for a few local guys...sometimes they bring me stuff that's pretty cool and I wouldn't mind having it....is it okay for me to create another ebay account and bid on that item? What if I don't win it and I'm the only other bidder? Is it still okay?

I know this is a rhetorical question but I'd only answer it to say that I would be OK with you making an offer before it hit ebay. It saves them the selling fees, shipping, waiting, etc. Same thing with H&S. If they want an item, make an offer to the consignor for the price you want to pay. If they don't want to do it and want a true auction, then let's do that. A true auction without the dealer's hand in play.

vintagechris · #6 02-21-2012, 10:03 PM

I'm not real familiar with prices for 1952 Topps cards. Am I the only one that thinks that lot would be an odd one for someone to buy to try and make money on, at least at that price. Although they are high #'s, they were all graded authentic.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 02-21-2012, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

I sell stuff on ebay for a few local guys...sometimes they bring me stuff that's pretty cool and I wouldn't mind having it....is it okay for me to create another ebay account and bid on that item? What if I don't win it and I'm the only other bidder? Is it still okay?

Then your consignor is happy, and the winner who paid what he wanted to is probably happy too.

HRBAKER · #8 02-21-2012, 10:29 PM

Ignorance is bliss in a non-arms length transaction.
Willing to pay and had to pay could be two different things.

slidekellyslide · #9 02-22-2012, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then your consignor is happy, and the winner who paid what he wanted to is probably happy too.

Is it still okay if I'm only bidding on it because I think it's going too cheaply and I might be able to sell it in a different venue for more money?

Peter_Spaeth · #10 02-22-2012, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Is it still okay if I'm only bidding on it because I think it's going too cheaply and I might be able to sell it in a different venue for more money?

That sounds like a hidden reserve, which I personally don't mind. How is it any different than starting the auction at a minimum bid? Granted, the latter would be cleaner.

To be clear, I think shill bidding -- that is, placing a bogus bid whose only purpose is to bump a different bidder to a higher level -- is wrong.

is it a perfect distinction? No, probably not. Can one posit examples where the effect is going to be similar? Probably. But to me intent does matter, and placing a bid with intent to win feels different from placing a bid with the intent to run someone else up.

slidekellyslide · #11 02-22-2012, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

That sounds like a hidden reserve, which I personally don't mind. How is it any different than starting the auction at a minimum bid? Granted, the latter would be cleaner.

To be clear, I think shill bidding -- that is, placing a bogus bid whose only purpose is to bump a different bidder to a higher level -- is wrong.

is it a perfect distinction? No, probably not. Can one posit examples where the effect is going to be similar? Probably. But to me intent does matter, and placing a bid with intent to win feels different from placing a bid with the intent to run someone else up.

Okay, but just remember that Huggins and Scott has dibs on the bargains.

mordecaibrown · #12 02-22-2012, 08:07 AM

The difference between the ebay scenario and H&S scenario is everyone is NOT playing under the same rules!

In the ebay scenario, we are all playing under the same rules - no buyers premium!

When H&S places a bid in their auctions (as HOC) and does NOT have to pay the buyers premium they are at an advantage over the other bidders. When you make a bid in an auction, you like to believe that the other bidders are making the same considerations as you: bid amount, buyers premium, any other fees - essentially, do I feel comfortable at this TOTAL price. When HOC makes bids they do not have to consider these other variables: H&S $200 bid = $200, other bidder $200 bid = $239 (with buyers premium) - those are not the same amounts; therefore, thats an advantage!

When H&S increases the bid amount, they directly increase the buyers premium; therefore, directly increase their profits - even if they dont win the item. Its a conflict of interest.

In the ebay situation, the seller (with the new user ID) can make a bid and increase the amount. The other bidders are playing under the same rules: seller $200 bid = $200, other bidder $200 bid = $200 - same amounts, no advantage gained. The seller does have a conflict of interest in this case because he likely is charging the individual who consigned the item a fee (higher it sells for - higher fee amount); however, in this case, the seller is taking more money from the consigner - NOT the other bidders.

I see numerous people spinning this a variety of different ways and using different comparisons, but this is a conflict of interest. Any auction company that bids on its own items should have it clearly listed right under the buyers premium - "we bid on our own things and dont have to pay buyers premiums!"

An.dy Ke.nn.edy

Orioles1954 · #13 02-22-2012, 08:19 AM

1.) HOC pays the Buyer's premium on each lot they win.

2.) They bid on a small fraction of lots in the auction. Primarily for the needs of their storefront or frequent customers with wantlists. There is no nefarious plot to artificially drive up prices so that no one can't get good deals.

3.) Peter Spaeth is correct. It's all about intent and motive. It is also about trust. If you think something is amiss (which I assure you in this case there isn't), place a maximum bid (as stated earlier in this thread) and stick with it.

For those who are truly interested and want to discuss this in a cordial manner, the owner's have generously offered to discuss this personally. The phone numbers are posted earlier in the thread.

James Feagin

Jaybird · #14 02-22-2012, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then your consignor is happy, and the winner who paid what he wanted to is probably happy too.

Let me know your ebay handle so I can be sure to stay far away should you decide to sell anything

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