The Goodwin Plank and Magie are TRIMMED!

[CardTarget]

Originally Posted by gnaz01

Frank,

I think Rich is asking WHAT signs do you see that show it is trimmed???

There are no physical signs - just historical knowledge.

There are a lot of scenarios where a few (or even ONE) of these get factory cut and then the presses/cutters get stopped. Nobody will ever REALLY know... so I, for one, am going to trust SGC.

I'm glass-half full.

[gnaz01]

Originally Posted by CardTarget

There are no physical signs - just historical knowledge.

There are a lot of scenarios where a few (or even ONE) of these get factory cut and then the presses/cutters get stopped. Nobody will ever REALLY know... so I, for one, am going to trust SGC.

I'm glass-half full.

Totally understood! However, Frank states "So far we perceive that all Piedmont 150 Planks show signs of being hand cut. This Plank that is offered is a Piedmont 150." So I think Rich was just looking for "signs" as Frank put it for this one in particular.

FWIW, I think it is a gorgeous card!!

[FrankWakefield]

It is a great looking card, I think it would be revered in any of our collections.

I understand the "what signs", for me it was easy, that blue "Piedmont 150" on the back clued me in. That was the sign.

[Exhibitman]

I am willing to give SGC the benefit of the doubt because they reviewed the card in hand, went over it very carefully, and were aware of the risk of labeling it with a numerical grade if they missed something. I do not believe that the management of the company would have gone forward without being as certain as possible of the qualities of the card. Do they miss things from time to time? Of course. But it is quite a stretch to say that they missed it on something as significant as the Plank card, at this time, in this age of scrutiny, with the money and reputation at stake as it is.

Jim also makes a very good point. Extrapolating from a few known examples to all examples in existence is an inclusion error that relies on an assumption that has not been validated. I have been proven wrong enough times in my collecting experiences that I won't classify something unusual unequivocally unless I have first-hand knowledge [like a 1971 partial blank back card that someone asked me about recently as perhaps being scrap rather than original--I pulled the card from a pack myself in 1971 so I know it was issued]. None of us were involved in the T206 printing process and we simply do not know what really happened. The fact that the few P150 Plank cards to emerge so far were handcut does not pre-empt the possibility that a card might have slipped into the actual mix of issued cards. Look at the error card threads of late; the crap that actually did get out is way more visibly wrong than a properly printed card, but it made it through quality control and into the packages. Wagner wasn't supposed to go out but a bunch did. I prefer to base my conclusions on what I see, not what I think I should see, and I do not have enough information to make a determination on the subject card. I'd need to see it in person and go over it the way SGC did.

[danmckee]

"But it is quite a stretch to say that they missed it on something as significant as the Plank card"

Hi Adam! Welcome to the battle!

Does this imply that the Green Cobb is insignificant?
or that it is properly numerically graded in your opinion?



thanks
dan

[dstudeba]

How is putting the number on the Plank card any different than putting a number on strip cards, Bazookas, Oklahoma Today, or Esskay cards? According to Ted all of the Plank Piedmont 150s are hand cut, so this is just another case of a grading company putting a number on a handcut card.

Personally I think all handcut cards should be Authentic, but grading companies have decided to disagree with me.

[danmckee]

I agree Dan, no hand cut cards should have numbers.

The difference here is that the companies admit the strip cards and such are hand cut because that is the only way they could be cut and were supposed to be cut.

The T206 issue is supposed to be factory cut and the company is implying that this one is NOT hand cut.

A significant difference I think

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by danmckee

I agree Dan, no hand cut cards should have numbers.

The difference here is that the companies admit the strip cards and such are hand cut because that is the only way they could be cut and were supposed to be cut.

The T206 issue is supposed to be factory cut and the company is implying that this one is NOT hand cut.

A significant difference I think

More than implying, they have stated with 100 percent certainty it is factory cut.

[CMIZ5290]

It would really be nice to have psa's opinion on this as well.....

[t206hound]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Does this imply that the Green Cobb is insignificant?
or that it is properly numerically graded in your opinion?

I don't know what tools/techniques/technologies are used by a TPG to determine if trimming has occurred. Hell, unless someone took safety scissors to a card, I can't tell. But regarding the Green Cobb, can you truly say simply by looking at the scan that it's trimmed? That top left corner gives me some pause, but maybe it's just a slight diamond cut?

Note that there was another Cobb (Bat Off) in the same submission that was deemed Authentic (likely due to trimming). What did they see in the Bat Off that they missed in the Green?

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by t206hound

I don't know what tools/techniques/technologies are used by a TPG to determine if trimming has occurred. Hell, unless someone took safety scissors to a card, I can't tell. But regarding the Green Cobb, can you truly say simply by looking at the scan that it's trimmed? That top left corner gives me some pause, but maybe it's just a slight diamond cut?

Note that there was another Cobb (Bat Off) in the same submission that was deemed Authentic (likely due to trimming). What did they see in the Bat Off that they missed in the Green?

That isn't an angle cut at the top left corner, that is a blatant dog ear'd cut.

And yes an angle cut would be fine but the bottom edge would need a matching opposite angle cut. This wavey bottom edge on the Green Cobb is flat across.

[danmckee]

Actually, I could see these 2 being swapped! I could live with the bat off numerically and the Green Cobb is just mind boggling.

[ullmandds]

i agree with you dan...with the top left and lower rt on that cobby as they appear...I believe it's trimmed.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by danmckee

That isn't an angle cut at the top left corner, that is a blatant dog ear'd cut.

And yes an angle cut would be fine but the bottom edge would need a matching opposite angle cut. This wavey bottom edge on the Green Cobb is flat across.

Not always true. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the bottom of this one:

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Not always true. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the bottom of this one:

Bottom may be ok Scott, maybe top got hacked down funky as it looks like it should be significantly larger all of the way across.

Maybe Ted Z or Jim Rivera or Tim Cathey the T206 experts could chime in here but I don't think what you are showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process?

dan

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Not always true. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the bottom of this one:

I agree with Scott. I have seen many, many caramel cards which were factory cut and had a big diamond cut on the top or bottom border without a matching diamond cut on the other top or bottom. I haven't seen as many of these weird cuts on tobacco cards but I have seen some like the Speaker which was displayed above.
I'm not weighing in on whether the Magie, Plank or Cobb are trimmed, although I do have an opinion, but rather just pointing out that not all diamond/diagonal cuts which don't have a matching opposite border, are hand cut or altered. I might mention I have also seen (and once owned) a very nice orange background Tinker E98 which had a wicked diamond cut left border and a straight right border and it sailed through grading with an SGC 40grade as SGC recognized it was a factory miscut.

[atx840]

Originally Posted by exhibitman

look at the error card threads of late; the crap that actually did get out

ಠ_ಠ