The Goodwin Plank and Magie are TRIMMED!

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by t206hound

I don't know what tools/techniques/technologies are used by a TPG to determine if trimming has occurred. Hell, unless someone took safety scissors to a card, I can't tell. But regarding the Green Cobb, can you truly say simply by looking at the scan that it's trimmed? That top left corner gives me some pause, but maybe it's just a slight diamond cut?

Note that there was another Cobb (Bat Off) in the same submission that was deemed Authentic (likely due to trimming). What did they see in the Bat Off that they missed in the Green?

That isn't an angle cut at the top left corner, that is a blatant dog ear'd cut.

And yes an angle cut would be fine but the bottom edge would need a matching opposite angle cut. This wavey bottom edge on the Green Cobb is flat across.

[danmckee]

Actually, I could see these 2 being swapped! I could live with the bat off numerically and the Green Cobb is just mind boggling.

[ullmandds]

i agree with you dan...with the top left and lower rt on that cobby as they appear...I believe it's trimmed.

[theuclakid]

I believe SGC should be given the benefit of the doubt on these questionably graded T206's, not just because of their distinction among most pre war collectors of being the most consistent graders of pre war cards, but because they have seen the cards raw, in hand and have carefully examined the edges with the best available lighting, magnification and expertise...I dont see how anyone can be as sure as SGC with regards to the authenticity of the card by just viewing an enlarged scan, the assumed historical production facts not withstanding....Bruce Perry

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

I believe SGC should be given the benefit of the doubt on these questionably graded T206's, not just because of their distinction among most pre war collectors of being the most consistent graders of pre war cards, but because they have seen the cards raw, in hand and have carefully examined the edges with the best available lighting, magnification and expertise...I dont see how anyone can be as sure as SGC with regards to the authenticity of the card by just viewing an enlarged scan, the assumed historical production facts not withstanding....Bruce Perry

This is fairly stated Bruce, a good point.

Though I think SGC's consistency has changed after Derek left

and I will beg to differ on the Green Cobb

You could place that one on the moon and give me a telescope and I could see it is hacked.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

I believe SGC should be given the benefit of the doubt on these questionably graded T206's, not just because of their distinction among most pre war collectors of being the most consistent graders of pre war cards, but because they have seen the cards raw, in hand and have carefully examined the edges with the best available lighting, magnification and expertise...I dont see how anyone can be as sure as SGC with regards to the authenticity of the card by just viewing an enlarged scan, the assumed historical production facts not withstanding....Bruce Perry

Bruce there is certainly an appeal to that argument, but ultimately the logic of it is that SGC is infallible: SGC is the expert, SGC examined it and graded it, therefore SGC must be right. Do you believe that?

[MW1]

Originally Posted by theuclakid

I believe SGC should be given the benefit of the doubt on these questionably graded T206's, not just because of their distinction among most pre war collectors of being the most consistent graders of pre war cards, but because they have seen the cards raw, in hand and have carefully examined the edges with the best available lighting, magnification and expertise...I dont see how anyone can be as sure as SGC with regards to the authenticity of the card by just viewing an enlarged scan, the assumed historical production facts not withstanding....Bruce Perry

+1

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by danmckee

That isn't an angle cut at the top left corner, that is a blatant dog ear'd cut.

And yes an angle cut would be fine but the bottom edge would need a matching opposite angle cut. This wavey bottom edge on the Green Cobb is flat across.

Not always true. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the bottom of this one:

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Not always true. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the bottom of this one:

Bottom may be ok Scott, maybe top got hacked down funky as it looks like it should be significantly larger all of the way across.

Maybe Ted Z or Jim Rivera or Tim Cathey the T206 experts could chime in here but I don't think what you are showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process?

dan

[danmckee]

6000+ views and rocking!

This is a kick-ass thread!

I see what Bill told me with the Cobb Bat off, that card looks good from the scan and looks like it would have warranted a numerical grade. Very interesting, has anyone looked at the other Authentics? How many look good?

[Peter_Spaeth]

As long as we are at it, comments on this one?

[danmckee]

my opinion, top and bottom are hacked. But I welcome other opinions and I think we need the larger raw scan so that the holder insert doesn't deceive us at the corners.

John Wonka can you add the raw Magie for us?

Thank you

[danmckee]

I guess we must remember as Bruce stated, SGC has had these in their hands and we haven't. Working off of scans is much different than in person. They are nice expensive cards and will be treasured by whoever purchases them.

[gnaz01]

So, I am not going to out a current auction, but there is this card that is currently up for auction, it is a T206 Cobb Green portrait, and this is the back. The flip says PSA5 Ex, how in the heck can the back damage on this card warrant an Ex!!!!!

[danmckee]

Are we missing something here?? Why are these not in psa holders? I would think the PSA registry would command more money than the SGC holder on these huge nice cards no?

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Bottom may be ok Scott, maybe top got hacked down funky as it looks like it should be significantly larger all of the way across.

Maybe Ted Z or Jim Rivera or Tim Cathey the T206 experts could chime in here but I don't think what you are showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process?

dan

Dan, great thread...

I have one point to make in this huge debate. You state above that you don't think what is showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process.

The big point is that you are only drawing assumptions about the cut and not known facts. We have never had access to the factory that actually separated these cards, so how can we ever be sure about Plank, Cobb and Magie?

Not trying to stir the pot, just thought I'd ask

mike.ca.ve

[CMIZ5290]

I would like to hear opinions about the sgc 84 joe doyle...that's the one i have a genuine interest in.

[danmckee]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Dan, great thread...

I have one point to make in this huge debate. You state above that you don't think what is showing can happen in the factory with what we know of the cutting process.

The big point is that you are only drawing assumptions about the cut and not known facts. We have never had access to the factory that actually separated these cards, so how can we ever be sure about Plank, Cobb and Magie?

Not trying to stir the pot, just thought I'd ask

mike.ca.ve

Hi Mike and thanks for posting.

Yes you are correct, I don't know any of this for certain. I do know that handling tobacco cards for years and buying many raw collections that a legit angle cut has always had the opposite angle cut on the other border.

That is why I was hoping Jim R or Tim C or Ted Z could comment on what they know of the cutting practice. I may be mistaking but I thought 1 or all of them did some research on that part. Tim C maybe?

thanks again for the interesting comments
dan

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Hi Mike and thanks for posting.

Yes you are correct, I don't know any of this for certain. I do know that handling tobacco cards for years and buying many raw collections that a legit angle cut has always had the opposite angle cut on the other border.

That is why I was hoping Jim R or Tim C or Ted Z could comment on what they know of the cutting practice. I may be mistaking but I thought 1 or all of them did some research on that part. Tim C maybe?

thanks again for the interesting comments
dan

Dan, I think Steve Birmingham is our man. Theories are great, but having someone who's handled the machinery and studied the history of it, is even better.

[martyp]

Originally Posted by danmckee

Hi Mike and thanks for posting.

Yes you are correct, I don't know any of this for certain. I do know that handling tobacco cards for years and buying many raw collections that a legit angle cut has always had the opposite angle cut on the other border.

That is why I was hoping Jim R or Tim C or Ted Z could comment on what they know of the cutting practice. I may be mistaking but I thought 1 or all of them did some research on that part. Tim C maybe?

thanks again for the interesting comments
dan

Dan, you got me thinking about how Mike's question and your comment about the other border. What if this card was the bottom card on the sheet and all the cuttins was from the top down. Were there bottom borders on the sheets that had to be cut off like the Topps cards or did the bottom edge of the sheet become the bottom edge of the card?
Marty

[FrankWakefield]

"It's amazing how much better these old cards look without any plastic in the way." Sounds to me like Scott has his eyes open, looking at cards, instead of looking at slip numbers. A few years ago I started saving those little slips. Maybe one day some collectors will zero in on the slips, and forgo the cards that some of us collect.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by martyp

Dan, you got me thinking about how Mike's question and your comment about the other border. What if this card was the bottom card on the sheet and all the cuttins was from the top down. Were there bottom borders on the sheets that had to be cut off like the Topps cards or did the bottom edge of the sheet become the bottom edge of the card?
Marty

Yes, the sheet would have had a margin on all 4 sides.

Steve B

[tbob]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Not always true. As far as I can tell, there's nothing wrong with the bottom of this one:

I agree with Scott. I have seen many, many caramel cards which were factory cut and had a big diamond cut on the top or bottom border without a matching diamond cut on the other top or bottom. I haven't seen as many of these weird cuts on tobacco cards but I have seen some like the Speaker which was displayed above.
I'm not weighing in on whether the Magie, Plank or Cobb are trimmed, although I do have an opinion, but rather just pointing out that not all diamond/diagonal cuts which don't have a matching opposite border, are hand cut or altered. I might mention I have also seen (and once owned) a very nice orange background Tinker E98 which had a wicked diamond cut left border and a straight right border and it sailed through grading with an SGC 40grade as SGC recognized it was a factory miscut.

[atx840]

Bringing this one back from the past.

[Runscott]

Chris, I didn't realize that it had been roughed up in order to get the numerical grade. That's something that would not have happened prior to the birth of slabbing

I just took the Speaker out and looped the borders very carefully - no problems at all. It's amazing how much better these old cards look without any plastic in the way.

[wonkaticket]

Ahhh the factory cut Hunt Plank (roll eyes)...to slab PSA 3 to Ebay to profit land...