Was I Shilled??

Peter_Spaeth · #1 04-20-2012, 12:19 PM

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

T206Collector · #2 04-20-2012, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

+1

D. Bergin · #3 04-20-2012, 01:30 PM

Let me be clear. I'm not in the camp either, that says it's ok you got shilled as long as you got the item at your price..........though I understand where those guys are coming from.

I don't condone shilling in any form. If you don't trust the auction process, use a reserve, high minimum, or list it at a straight price. I've got tons of stuff I think is a waste listing in a 7-10 day window at auction. Most of that stuff gets listed for retail on my websites.

I think it's a serious offense and I'd get annoyed if I thought my own bid got shilled up.

Because I think it's a serious offense, I think it's a travesty that others throw around the word so easily. It's an accusation. I'd be p*ssed, and I'd be mortified if somebody accused me of shilling one of my auctions. I've been selling on Ebay long enough to know, I've had plenty of auctions with strange bidders, and bidding patterns that could have drawn the attention of the "shilling police". Anybody who's sold on Ebay with any regularity has.

People seem to often use the logic......."that's not how I'd bid" to jump to a conclusion that somebody is shilling an auction.

Every bidder is different, with different strategies and different ideas on how they'd like to win an auction. Many of them make no sense whatsoever to me, but it is what it is.

Now, the auction in question in this thread. it's pretty scary how quickly the lynch mob formed behind the "Kill The Witch" crowd, even after certain facts were laid out pretty plainly.

The actual timing of this sellers auctions and the bids make it fairly easy, with about 5 minutes of detective work, to debunk any sort of shilling fantasy.

If it is a shill, it's the most poorly conceived shill I've ever seen.

Worst case scenario, it's somebody who's giving this seller a ride by buying up a bunch of their retail listings without any intention of paying. I've no reason to know, one way or another at this point.

I have a hard time believing, a seller whose been around decades, threatens their own reputation by inventing a shill account for one auction. Meanwhile they buy up almost couple dozen of their own BIN's. Incurring the fees of such for no discernible reason whatsoever.

Now, I don't know if this seller has a previous reputation for shilling, if they've actually shilled before, have other shilling accounts. But this auction gives no evidence of that.........actually it's quite the contrary IMO.

calvindog · #4 04-20-2012, 01:43 PM

I've got another poorly conceived shilling strategy: an internationally acclaimed auction house, the leader in its field, uses fake bidder names to bid right under ceiling bids left by unsuspecting idiot bidders who don't mind getting run up -- except the computers used by the fake bidders can be traced back to those inside said auction house.

Let's spend some more time clucking about this garbage; the soap operas don't start on TV for another half hour.

D. Bergin · #5 04-20-2012, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

I've got another poorly conceived shilling strategy: an internationally acclaimed auction house, the leader in its field, uses fake bidder names to bid right under ceiling bids left by unsuspecting idiot bidders who don't mind getting run up -- except the computers used by the fake bidders can be traced back to those inside said auction house.

Let's spend some more time clucking about this garbage; the soap operas don't start on TV for another half hour.

Therefore, you've got your mind made up that everybody else who has a finger pointed at them must be guilty, and it's a waste of time discussing if they might actually be innocent?

Not sure what this has to do with Mastro/Legendary.

calvindog · #6 04-20-2012, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Therefore, you've got your mind made up that everybody else who has a finger pointed at them must be guilty, and it's a waste of time discussing if they might actually be innocent?

Not sure what this has to do with Mastro/Legendary.

Dave, honestly, unless I'm getting paid $850 an hour to continue this discussion, I can't possibly see any merit in it.

T206Collector · #7 04-20-2012, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

I've got another poorly conceived shilling strategy: an internationally acclaimed auction house, the leader in its field, uses fake bidder names to bid right under ceiling bids left by unsuspecting idiot bidders who don't mind getting run up -- except the computers used by the fake bidders can be traced back to those inside said auction house.

Let's spend some more time clucking about this garbage; the soap operas don't start on TV for another half hour.

You never account for the BIN history.

Leon · #8 04-20-2012, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

No matter how you slice it, if someone is shill bidding it's wrong. No logic will make it right. Of course there are worse problems but this is the one being discussed. As for the original auction being debated, my only thinking is that I don't know about the BINs. Those most likely were not shill bidding.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 04-20-2012, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

No matter how you slice it, if someone is shill bidding it's wrong. No logic will make it right. Of course there are worse problems but this is the one being discussed. As for the original auction being debated, my only thinking is that I don't know about the BINs. Those most likely were not shill bidding.

Leon, I agree that it's wrong, but my point is that it's so commonplace, predictable, and incapable of being prevented that it's a waste of time and energy to focus on it. I know from prior complaints to ebay (in situations that were painfully obvious) that went uremedied that they don't care about it, for example. Oh wait, maybe that grand jury in Chicago is about to hand down an indictment....

Leon · #10 04-20-2012, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Leon, I agree that it's wrong, but my point is that it's so commonplace, predictable, and incapable of being prevented that it's a waste of time and energy to focus on it. I know from prior complaints to ebay (in situations that were painfully obvious) that went uremedied that they don't care about it, for example. Oh wait, maybe that grand jury in Chicago is about to hand down an indictment....

It might be a waste of time and energy but it's still what is being discussed in this thread. And there seem to be some very different feelings on the original auction, or at least potential different possibilities, so this one WAS probably worth discussing. I rarely see so many members so divided like this. (yes, I know there are exceptions but to this extent is unusual)

calvindog · #11 04-20-2012, 01:29 PM

Let's not worry about 11,000 killed in Syria -- because things are so much worse in Darfur.

The fact that we have people on this board -- purportedly educated people -- saying that they don't mind being defrauded is a bit chilling to say the least.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 04-20-2012, 01:40 PM

[QUOTE=calvindog;985663]Let's not worry about 11,000 killed in Syria -- because things are so much worse in Darfur.

QUOTE]

No, let's ignore Darfur, because there are people we like there.

T206Collector · #13 04-20-2012, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

The fact that we have people on this board -- purportedly educated people -- saying that they don't mind being defrauded is a bit chilling to say the least.

To be clear, when I say that I don't mind shill bidding, it is not because I like being defrauded -- it is because I do not test or question the merits of every underbid in an auction I win. I assume that the bids in every auction are illegitimate.

tbob · #14 04-20-2012, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Let's not worry about 11,000 killed in Syria -- because things are so much worse in Darfur.

The fact that we have people on this board -- purportedly educated people -- saying that they don't mind being defrauded is a bit chilling to say the least.

Jeff- I hate the thought of being shilled as much as anyone. Wrong is wrong. I just don't see it here.
tbob

WhenItWasAHobby · #15 04-21-2012, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

I agree with you Peter that shilling is a fact of life. I also agree that there are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia. What amazes me is how many collectors I've talked to over the past 4 years openly accept that 15% to 20% of their collection may be altered or fake yet some of these guys continue to spend six figures annually on cards and memorabilia. To me it almost borders on a type of mental illness like you see on Hoarders on A&E - they just can't help themselves and live these destructive lifestyles.

Kenny Cole · #16 04-21-2012, 01:45 AM

To some degree, the mind-set is one and the same. You don't want to admit (or find out) that you got shilled and overpaid, and you certainly don't want to admit (or find out) that the card you overpaid for was altered.

Leon · #17 04-21-2012, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I agree with you Peter that shilling is a fact of life. I also agree that there are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia. What amazes me is how many collectors I've talked to over the past 4 years openly accept that 15% to 20% of their collection may be altered or fake yet some of these guys continue to spend six figures annually on cards and memorabilia. To me it almost borders on a type of mental illness like you see on Hoarders on A&E - they just can't help themselves and live these destructive lifestyles.

It also depends on what you collect. I understand I may have a card or two that has an alteration. I happen to know a few people in the hobby and my sources tell me that the lower grade cards are less likely to be altered. I think if you know what you are doing and don't collect the high grade stuff, you are far less likely to have issues. I have not worried, over any period of time (of course individually every now and then I worry a bit) about cards in my collection with respect to alterations. I sleep well at night knowing almost all of my pr-ex cards are fine. As for shilling, unfortunately before about 5 yrs ago I think I was probably shilled a fair amount....since then probably not too much. I am sure I could be wrong but my "shit to equity" ratio in the hobby is still way up on the equity side. I still enjoy it immensely. If you don't enjoy the hobby or worry all of the time I would recommend doing something else.

rainier2004 · #18 04-21-2012, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I happen to know a few people in the hobby and my sources tell me that the lower grade cards are less likely to be altered. I think if you know what you are doing and don't collect the high grade stuff, you are far less likely to have issues.

Exactly, and that's partly why my cards are in this category...

botn · #19 04-21-2012, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

It also depends on what you collect. I understand I may have a card or two that has an alteration. I happen to know a few people in the hobby and my sources tell me that the lower grade cards are less likely to be altered. I think if you know what you are doing and don't collect the high grade stuff, you are far less likely to have issues. I have not worried, over any period of time (of course individually every now and then I worry a bit) about cards in my collection with respect to alterations. I sleep well at night knowing almost all of my pr-ex cards are fine. As for shilling, unfortunately before about 5 yrs ago I think I was probably shilled a fair amount....since then probably not too much. I am sure I could be wrong but my "shit to equity" ratio in the hobby is still way up on the equity side. I still enjoy it immensely. If you don't enjoy the hobby or worry all of the time I would recommend doing something else.

Hey Leon,

I am a little late with my 2 cents but I thought of you recently when I got several lower grade items from an auction house who will remain nameless. 3 cards were graded (2 SGC and 1 PSA) and virtually as low a grade as you can get and all 3 cards were heavily worked. Also the ungraded material I got (about 40 cards) had also been worked. Those 40 cards ranged in value of $40 to $400. And while I would not base this experience on all lower grade material which is sold, I have come to expect that if the item is worth enough money then there is a good chance someone will have made an effort to make it worth just a bit more.

Greg

Leon · #20 04-21-2012, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by botn

Hey Leon,

I am a little late with my 2 cents but I thought of you recently when I got several lower grade items from an auction house who will remain nameless. 3 cards were graded (2 SGC and 1 PSA) and virtually as low a grade as you can get and all 3 cards were heavily worked. Also the ungraded material I got (about 40 cards) had also been worked. Those 40 cards ranged in value of $40 to $400. And while I would not base this experience on all lower grade material which is sold, I have come to expect that if the item is worth enough money then there is a good chance someone will have made an effort to make it worth just a bit more.

Greg

Hi Greg
Of course, and that is why I said "less likely". I guess if some of my fr conditioned cards were worked up from poor, and they now look presentable, I can live with that. Heck, I have erased pencil marks, soaked and used a cue tip and water on many of my own cards. I am guilty of that. I am curious, if you care to disclose, what about them was worked on?

calvindog · #21 04-21-2012, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by botn

Hey Leon,

I am a little late with my 2 cents but I thought of you recently when I got several lower grade items from an auction house who will remain nameless. 3 cards were graded (2 SGC and 1 PSA) and virtually as low a grade as you can get and all 3 cards were heavily worked. Also the ungraded material I got (about 40 cards) had also been worked. Those 40 cards ranged in value of $40 to $400. And while I would not base this experience on all lower grade material which is sold, I have come to expect that if the item is worth enough money then there is a good chance someone will have made an effort to make it worth just a bit more.

Greg

This just made me a bit nauseous.

Peter_Spaeth · #22 04-21-2012, 07:42 PM

Welcome to Darfur.

calvindog · #23 04-21-2012, 07:49 PM

LOL. I hadn't been paying attention obviously -- the Orange Julius being sold in Gazan malls has not been properly chilled of late. The horror!

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