Was I Shilled??

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As a hobby issue, shill bidding is vastly overrated. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact of life, and the result isn't all that different from a hidden reserve. If I win a card at a price I am comfortable paying, I am not going to lose sleep about whether I was run up. There are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia.

I agree with you Peter that shilling is a fact of life. I also agree that there are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia. What amazes me is how many collectors I've talked to over the past 4 years openly accept that 15% to 20% of their collection may be altered or fake yet some of these guys continue to spend six figures annually on cards and memorabilia. To me it almost borders on a type of mental illness like you see on Hoarders on A&E - they just can't help themselves and live these destructive lifestyles.

[Kenny Cole]

To some degree, the mind-set is one and the same. You don't want to admit (or find out) that you got shilled and overpaid, and you certainly don't want to admit (or find out) that the card you overpaid for was altered.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I agree with you Peter that shilling is a fact of life. I also agree that there are far worse problems in the hobby, namely altered cards and fake memorabilia. What amazes me is how many collectors I've talked to over the past 4 years openly accept that 15% to 20% of their collection may be altered or fake yet some of these guys continue to spend six figures annually on cards and memorabilia. To me it almost borders on a type of mental illness like you see on Hoarders on A&E - they just can't help themselves and live these destructive lifestyles.

It also depends on what you collect. I understand I may have a card or two that has an alteration. I happen to know a few people in the hobby and my sources tell me that the lower grade cards are less likely to be altered. I think if you know what you are doing and don't collect the high grade stuff, you are far less likely to have issues. I have not worried, over any period of time (of course individually every now and then I worry a bit) about cards in my collection with respect to alterations. I sleep well at night knowing almost all of my pr-ex cards are fine. As for shilling, unfortunately before about 5 yrs ago I think I was probably shilled a fair amount....since then probably not too much. I am sure I could be wrong but my "shit to equity" ratio in the hobby is still way up on the equity side. I still enjoy it immensely. If you don't enjoy the hobby or worry all of the time I would recommend doing something else.

[rainier2004]

Originally Posted by Leon

I happen to know a few people in the hobby and my sources tell me that the lower grade cards are less likely to be altered. I think if you know what you are doing and don't collect the high grade stuff, you are far less likely to have issues.

Exactly, and that's partly why my cards are in this category...

[botn]

Originally Posted by Leon

It also depends on what you collect. I understand I may have a card or two that has an alteration. I happen to know a few people in the hobby and my sources tell me that the lower grade cards are less likely to be altered. I think if you know what you are doing and don't collect the high grade stuff, you are far less likely to have issues. I have not worried, over any period of time (of course individually every now and then I worry a bit) about cards in my collection with respect to alterations. I sleep well at night knowing almost all of my pr-ex cards are fine. As for shilling, unfortunately before about 5 yrs ago I think I was probably shilled a fair amount....since then probably not too much. I am sure I could be wrong but my "shit to equity" ratio in the hobby is still way up on the equity side. I still enjoy it immensely. If you don't enjoy the hobby or worry all of the time I would recommend doing something else.

Hey Leon,

I am a little late with my 2 cents but I thought of you recently when I got several lower grade items from an auction house who will remain nameless. 3 cards were graded (2 SGC and 1 PSA) and virtually as low a grade as you can get and all 3 cards were heavily worked. Also the ungraded material I got (about 40 cards) had also been worked. Those 40 cards ranged in value of $40 to $400. And while I would not base this experience on all lower grade material which is sold, I have come to expect that if the item is worth enough money then there is a good chance someone will have made an effort to make it worth just a bit more.

Greg

[Leon]

Originally Posted by botn

Hey Leon,

I am a little late with my 2 cents but I thought of you recently when I got several lower grade items from an auction house who will remain nameless. 3 cards were graded (2 SGC and 1 PSA) and virtually as low a grade as you can get and all 3 cards were heavily worked. Also the ungraded material I got (about 40 cards) had also been worked. Those 40 cards ranged in value of $40 to $400. And while I would not base this experience on all lower grade material which is sold, I have come to expect that if the item is worth enough money then there is a good chance someone will have made an effort to make it worth just a bit more.

Greg

Hi Greg
Of course, and that is why I said "less likely". I guess if some of my fr conditioned cards were worked up from poor, and they now look presentable, I can live with that. Heck, I have erased pencil marks, soaked and used a cue tip and water on many of my own cards. I am guilty of that. I am curious, if you care to disclose, what about them was worked on?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by botn

Hey Leon,

I am a little late with my 2 cents but I thought of you recently when I got several lower grade items from an auction house who will remain nameless. 3 cards were graded (2 SGC and 1 PSA) and virtually as low a grade as you can get and all 3 cards were heavily worked. Also the ungraded material I got (about 40 cards) had also been worked. Those 40 cards ranged in value of $40 to $400. And while I would not base this experience on all lower grade material which is sold, I have come to expect that if the item is worth enough money then there is a good chance someone will have made an effort to make it worth just a bit more.

Greg

This just made me a bit nauseous.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Welcome to Darfur.

[calvindog]

LOL. I hadn't been paying attention obviously -- the Orange Julius being sold in Gazan malls has not been properly chilled of late. The horror!

[botn]

Originally Posted by Leon

Hi Greg
Of course, and that is why I said "less likely". I guess if some of my fr conditioned cards were worked up from poor, and they now look presentable, I can live with that. Heck, I have erased pencil marks, soaked and used a cue tip and water on many of my own cards. I am guilty of that. I am curious, if you care to disclose, what about them was worked on?

Hi Leon,

Creases were attempted to be removed, attempts made to remove ink, missing stock was attempted to be concealed, in a most devious manner. Very obvious to me and not the innocent stuff you describe above.

It has always been my experience that value, not condition, is the determining factor of whether a card might undergo some form of alteration. It is unusual for me to end up with 100% of a purchase having been messed with but I do see a significant amount of cards in all conditions all values that I feel have had work done. Most are graded too.

Someone in the last couple days made a very astute post. Not sure which thread but he wrote that the only thing grading has done for the hobby is permit card doctors to make more money.

Greg