Interesting interviews regarding authenticity of the 4.4 mil Babe Ruth jersey

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

And we all know people can move insignias and buttons around on a jersey to make jerseys resemble those in pictures.

Just a word on this. They actually put the jersey up to a light to see if there any any stitch holes present, which would show if any alterations have taken place.

[BigJJ]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

Just a word on this. They actually put the jersey up to a light to see if there any any stitch holes present, which would show if any alterations have taken place.

Again I have no knowledge regarding the Ruth jersey, its level of photo matching, provenance, etc. I have no reason to believe the jersey is anything other than what was presented.

On a separate note, not certain holes cannot be closed through cleaning and drying, perhaps the hard core jersey guys could chime in.

I just think for items of such import, we ought to have a listed provenance roughly covering the life of the item.

[murphusa]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

I just think for items of such import, we ought to have a listed provenance roughly covering the life of the item.

Would this statement also fall in line with 40K bats? Standards should be just that no matter what the item.

[BigJJ]

Yes.
Sometimes it is difficult given relevant parties.
But it would be less difficult if there was general recognition among the auction houses - and buyers - that 'important' pieces ought to be accompanied by provenance, in a manner similar to art. for all 'important' items, say values of 20k+? I do not know how others would define 'important' items. Or whether other opinion would be for all items, or items with values of $1500+, and distinctions in value between cards and memorabilia, say cards with values of 50k+?

[imacgreg]

My only expertise in this area is a healthy cynicism about human nature. Given the sums of money involved, I would think a sophisticated forger would work the photo match process in reverse. That is, use a period photo and the available information about labelling and materials to doctor up a uniform with the criteria Bugsy listed above in mind. Even if you just wanted to produce a generic 20's Yankees jersey, you could consult the picture to determine lettering size and style, button placement, etc.. Having gone to that much trouble, why not add an additional $4 million to the price tag by reproducing a sleeve repair and mustard stain that are specific to a uniform in a Babe Ruth photograph?

Let's face it, if a 14th century forger still has experts arguing over the provenance of Jesus's last jersey, what chance is there against a 21st century "fabric-ator"?

[Bugsy]

It would be incredibly difficult to fake a jersey like this. There are so many things to consider. I took all these into account when purchasing a pre-war jersey. I'm sure there are many things I missed too. One wrong answer to any of these can be a huge red flag.

1) Is the jersey made of the correct material? Different fabric blends and weights can be pinpointed to different time periods.

2) Who was the manufacturer?

3) Does the style of the manufacturer's tagging, wash instructions, etc. match the period the jersey was supposedly used?

4) Is the jersey the correct size for the player?

5) Does the jersey have the correct lettering font on the front?

6) Is the style of the number font correct?

7) Is the lettering the correct color?

8) Is the font placement correct?

9) Is the font material correct?

10) Does the jersey have correct buttons?

11) Does the jersey have the correct number of buttons?

12) Is the button placement correct?

13) Is the pinstriping correct?

14) Are team personalizations correct (chain-stitching, etc.)

15) Does the jersey show any alterations?

16) Does the hem match period specifications?

17) What about the taper?

18) What kind of wear does it show?

19) What about the collar style?

20) What about the armpits? There are different methods of sewing the sleeves to the shirt (and sometimes even different fabrics). Even things like the placement and number of air holes in the arm pits have to be consistent with examples from the manufacturer from that period.

Provenance and photomatching can only strengthen an argument.

The nice thing about Ruth jerseys is that several have survived. It is tougher to make a comparison when something is one of a kind.

Just food for thought.

Chris

[drc]

I note that Dave Grob is one of the top jersey experts in the field, and is as ethical and detail oriented as there is in the hobby. He's also a retired Army Lieutenant Colonel.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by drc

I note that Dave Grob is one of the top jersey experts in the field, and is as ethical and detail oriented as there is in the hobby. He's also a retired Army Lieutenant Colonel.

and Chris Morales is a former secret service agent.....this means nothing.

I'm sure Dave Grob is a top expert and is ethical though. It's my experience in this hobby to EXPECT it to be FAKE first, then verify. Even if Dave says so.... "Ask Mears... it too late" does not give me much faith in the project...... and another thing.....

I have a wool suit from Nordstrom's that the moths got to after 2 years. This Jersey just "shows up" in 2004. I have a clear picture of that. it must be polyester. I'm sure it was tucked away and forgotten in grandmas ceder chest and bought at an estate sale.

[travrosty]

If only JSA did jerseys THEN I would feel 100% comfortable with this shirt.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by travrosty

If only JSA did jerseys THEN I would feel 100% comfortable with this shirt.

not me, I'd want to "ask Mears" and get a dual Certificate from PSA as well. Then I'd know it was real.....

seriously with all joking aside, The "ask Mears" line and "it's too late", do not come off anywhere near credible, reliable or professional when you've just sold a 4.4 million dollar item IMHO.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

not me, I'd want to "ask Mears" and get a dual Certificate from PSA as well. Then I'd know it was real.....

seriously with all joking aside, The "ask Mears" line and "it's too late", do not come off anywhere near credible, reliable or professional when you've just sold a 4.4 million dollar item IMHO.

Agreed. As I said previously, if the auction house peddling the item doesn't have some understanding of the authentication process they shouldn't be in the business.

[Splinte1941]

Originally Posted by travrosty

If only JSA did jerseys THEN I would feel 100% comfortable with this shirt.

Love it.

Hauls of Shame has provided some unsubstantiated provenance to this jersey based on sources. Why is this so secretive?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Splinte1941

Love it.

Hauls of Shame has provided some unsubstantiated provenance to this jersey based on sources. Why is this so secretive?

how did haulsofshame find out something about its provenance, and the auction house couldn't?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

It would be incredibly difficult to fake a jersey like this. There are so many things to consider. I took all these into account when purchasing a pre-war jersey. I'm sure there are many things I missed too. One wrong answer to any of these can be a huge red flag.

1) Is the jersey made of the correct material? Different fabric blends and weights can be pinpointed to different time periods.

2) Who was the manufacturer?

3) Does the style of the manufacturer's tagging, wash instructions, etc. match the period the jersey was supposedly used?

4) Is the jersey the correct size for the player?

5) Does the jersey have the correct lettering font on the front?

6) Is the style of the number font correct?

7) Is the lettering the correct color?

8) Is the font placement correct?

9) Is the font material correct?

10) Does the jersey have correct buttons?

11) Does the jersey have the correct number of buttons?

12) Is the button placement correct?

13) Is the pinstriping correct?

14) Are team personalizations correct (chain-stitching, etc.)

15) Does the jersey show any alterations?

16) Does the hem match period specifications?

17) What about the taper?

18) What kind of wear does it show?

19) What about the collar style?

20) What about the armpits? There are different methods of sewing the sleeves to the shirt (and sometimes even different fabrics). Even things like the placement and number of air holes in the arm pits have to be consistent with examples from the manufacturer from that period.

Provenance and photomatching can only strengthen an argument.

The nice thing about Ruth jerseys is that several have survived. It is tougher to make a comparison when something is one of a kind.

Just food for thought.

Chris

How about he answered like this instead of "ask Mears". What an idiot.