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  #1  
Old 10-27-2011, 08:11 AM
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Default VCP rant

At the beginning of the year, I came into a little money and decided to invest the funds in my collection. I bought a mixture of pre-war and post war (’52-’56 Topps) cards. Last week I decided to sell one of the cards that I bought to put the money in other areas of my collecting focus. The card was a E90 American Caramel Eddie Plank graded SGC 50. I knew that I had purchased it on eBay, but couldn’t remember what I paid for it. I looked up the card on VCP, but they didn’t show the sale.

I knew the approx date of when I purchased the card so I was able to look it up in my PayPal history. I emailed VCP to inform them of their mistake and told them that I have screen shots that would support my claim. Bobby responded back the following day and his reply was simply this, “Since the auction is so old we can not verify it.” That was it. Nothing else. Are you kidding me?

This card in this grade rarely comes up for sale (last time was nearly 2 years ago) so it is important the data be correct. So it got me to thinking, if they didn’t record this sale, what other sales did they miss? I looked in my PayPal history and you would be surprised. I limited my search to only purchases of $200 or more, only pre-war cards and only the month of February. There were 3 purchases involving 4 cards. 3 of those 4 cards were not recorded by VCP (that doesn’t include the Plank card). If you count the Plank, that is 4 of 5 sales that they did not record. Keep in mind I only checked pre-war cards, purchases of $200+ and only sales from the month of February. I’m sure I would get the same results if I searched other purchases.

As buyers and sellers of cards, we put our trust in VCP for reliable data. Is VCP really this incompetent? And when their mistakes are pointed out, shouldn’t they make an effort to correct them rather some stupid BS excuse? I am cancelling my membership with VCP and I will contact my credit card company and dispute the charges. VCP is a joke!

Here is the original Plank that I was referring to, bought from Mike Wheat on or around February 8th. Not recorded in VCP.


Here is a purchase from Joe's Vintage Sportscards on or around February 26th. I only checked the Keeler and McGraw, both sales not reflected on VCP (I'm sure the other 2 cards weren't captured either).


Here is a E90 American Caramel Lajoie that was puchased from Chris Buckler on or about February 13th. Doesn't show up in VCP.


Anybody else having a problem with VCP not recording their sales?
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  #2  
Old 10-27-2011, 08:45 AM
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That's interesting David, and I know Bobby posts on this board (hi Bobby!). It would be helpful if he would explain how he gathers the data for VCP. Because I agree all sales are valid and useful information.

Last edited by barrysloate; 10-27-2011 at 08:45 AM.
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  #3  
Old 10-27-2011, 09:13 AM
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They probably don't record most retail or BIN sales.

Probably because they are easier to manipulate.

Not that an auction with 3-10 days of exposure from a seller who doesn't publicize their auctions outside of the Ebay framework and throws up blurry photos and minimal descriptions should be an accurate representation of actual market value either.

I guess you have to pick and choose your poison.
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Old 10-27-2011, 09:50 AM
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That's a good point I may have missed. Were these BIN's or actual auctions? BIN's have never been part of VCP, only auctions. That would explain it.
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  #5  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:22 AM
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Hi All,

I agree with David. I'm relatively new to Net54, but had some, although limited,
experience with VCP prior to and after joining Net54. A friend that is on the board regarded it as "The Source" for average pricing sold. He allowed me to use his subscription for awhile to help me out. I soon noticed that a number of my
purchases from Ebay were not recorded, and I keep very good records. Although I view it as another "Tool" for prices paid, I decided not to join as I
did not think it was as good as I was being told. I did not go any further in investigation, but maybe they pick up Auctions better then Ebay. Not long after I joined Net54 I had an experience where I told a potential buyer on the board I was trying to get what I paid for a card. I told him the price I paid and he later came back and said that VCP showed no such price during the time period I bought the card from Ebay. I told him they did not pick it up. Needless to say I do not think he belived me. So at this point I believe it is another "Tool", but it may not be as accurate as many believe.

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  #6  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:25 AM
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I don't know the specifics of your deal but I did a one-day VCP signup recently and I was surprised at how few cards had transacted in the last 2-3 years according to it. I found listing after listing for T, E and W cards that showed no sales for years, in any grade. Seemed inaccurate to me.

Slightly off topic but how do you capture a screen shot like those?
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  #7  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:31 AM
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For easier tracking of Ebay purchases, all you need to do is click "Purchase History", then click "Archive" , and you can bring up all of your purchases for all of 2009, 2010 and the current year.

Comes in handy.
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  #8  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrysloate View Post
That's a good point I may have missed. Were these BIN's or actual auctions? BIN's have never been part of VCP, only auctions. That would explain it.
Barry,

Yes, they were all BINs. However, the one card that they did record was a BIN as well (E102 Eddie Collins SGC 40 $310 2/26/11). I'm not sure why they would record some BINs, but not others.
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  #9  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:37 AM
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Use the print screen key on your keyboard, then paste into a photo program or Word etc. Adam.

John
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  #10  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
I don't know the specifics of your deal but I did a one-day VCP signup recently and I was surprised at how few cards had transacted in the last 2-3 years according to it. I found listing after listing for T, E and W cards that showed no sales for years, in any grade. Seemed inaccurate to me.
Some of these cards don't trade very often and it's important to capture every public sale (that is their business). If it were a '56 Mantle or some card like that that trades several times a month, it wouldn't be as big a deal to miss a transaction every now and then because it would still equal out. However, it's frustrating knowing they are missing cards like the ones I've mentioned.
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Last edited by vintagetoppsguy; 10-27-2011 at 10:47 AM.
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  #11  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:46 AM
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FYI, I cancelled VCP a few weeks ago after being a member for years.
It's just not cost effective anymore for the information you receive imo.
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  #12  
Old 10-27-2011, 11:11 AM
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I will never understand why BIN's or Best Offers that are accepted are not included. When did the Market price become synonomous with "at auction" only. If you go buy something at Wal-mart for a set price is that not what that item is currently selling for? IMO every transacted card should be included or you are only getting part of the picture. Don't give me that it is easier to manipuate because you can shill an auction just as easy. I have never been a member of VCP and probably never will for the reason stated above.
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  #13  
Old 10-27-2011, 11:19 AM
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There are a good amount of auction houses that are not currently updated in VCP: Goodwin, CSA, Baggers, Heritage and more. Going to all the sites that have an area where you can find previous records is almost more useful. I still subscribe to VCP to save some time on the more commonly sold cards (Mantle's, etc) as stated above by someone.
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  #14  
Old 10-27-2011, 11:26 AM
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VCP has been giving diminishing returns to me and I too cancelled my membership after being a firm believer for years. The lack of BIN data, the loss of some auction house data, and the increase in price all contributed to my decision.

In the past, VCP provided a great service to me, but it is no longer is a "must have" for me for a variety of reasons.
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  #15  
Old 10-27-2011, 11:31 AM
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But you can't shill an auction to a lower price. And that's the bit of price manipulation that would really hurt if all BINs were included. 4-5 fake sales over a couple months to drive the average down, negotiate a couple purchases based on the lower average. Then shill or generate a few more fake sales to raise the average and sell above average since "it's taking off".


Steve B

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhettyeakley View Post
I will never understand why BIN's or Best Offers that are accepted are not included. When did the Market price become synonomous with "at auction" only. If you go buy something at Wal-mart for a set price is that not what that item is currently selling for? IMO every transacted card should be included or you are only getting part of the picture. Don't give me that it is easier to manipuate because you can shill an auction just as easy. I have never been a member of VCP and probably never will for the reason stated above.
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  #16  
Old 10-27-2011, 11:37 AM
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Someone once told me, and I cannot verify that this in fact the case, that VCP must somehow acquire the rights to mine data and only has the right to certain data. If such is the case, the fact that certain sales are not included is not because they willingly and consciencely exclude them.

Has anyone else ever heard this (other than from me)?
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  #17  
Old 10-27-2011, 11:38 AM
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VCP records both BIN's and auctions. I use them as well as data I gather from watching sales both here, eBay, and other sources. I believe this was discussed before and it's a keyword issue for the spiders searching out this data via the web. Problem is if you don't do your research dont blame VCP for not doing it for you. I don't agree with the fact I spend X amount every year for me to continually research my cards when I have paid for a service that claims to do it for me but it is what it is. For as little as I use it now I don't think it's worth half of what I pay a yr but before I could cancel renewal I got charged. Oh well there is always next yr. Maybe this thread will light a well needed fire to get the system fixed.

Bobby has a great product and it is still fairly new. It takes time and money to make anything work. Also I wonder how many people have ever contacted him in regards to this issue? One complaint every now and then may not have warranted a red flag to be raised and looked at. All we can do is tell him the issues and hope he handles them. I wish him all the best on his business.
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  #18  
Old 10-27-2011, 12:02 PM
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I'm just totally guessing here, and only Bobby can say when/if he decides to chime in, but does VCP get the data based on the listing title or just the item details on ebay? For example, a lot of sellers don't fill in the item details on the listing (which would include manufacturer, card, grade, etc), and perhaps that is why these are not being picked up by VCP. Or not sure if VCP parses in the listing in some other way.
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  #19  
Old 10-27-2011, 12:18 PM
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We try our best to capture as much data as we can and there are circumstances where some fall through the cracks. We get notices from members about once a month for something we missed and verify the auction and add it to our system. In this case we had no way of verifying the results. I see that it happened looking at the screen shots he posted which he never sent to me to view. All he sent was a eBay ID that expired and showed me no proof it ever happened.

At the beginning of the year eBay decided to change their API system and of course as we all know about them they failed to tell their licensees about it so there was a time period we where not pulling all the data. Since then we were finally able to implement a workaround in March and the reports of missing transaction dropped dramatically.


We never want to get in a situation where we are posting results without the proof. We have always been here and available for all of our members needs and answer any question or fix any problem that should arise.
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  #20  
Old 10-27-2011, 12:24 PM
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Default we used to let him have the info

My little auction company, B & L, used to allow VCP to mine our data. For our last auction Bobby told us there would be a fee to do it so we decided not to. Fewer houses let him use their info anymore. I am not sure of all of the reasoning.
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  #21  
Old 10-27-2011, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyVCP View Post
In this case we had no way of verifying the results. I see that it happened looking at the screen shots he posted which he never sent to me to view. All he sent was a eBay ID that expired and showed me no proof it ever happened.

We never want to get in a situation where we are posting results without the proof. We have always been here and available for all of our members needs and answer any question or fix any problem that should arise.
Bobby,

Here was my email to you, word for word:
"I have a 1909 E90-1 American Caramel Eddie Plank SGC 50 (4) that I was considering selling. I went to VCP to look up what I paid for the card, but you guys don't list it. I bought this card on eBay on or around February 8, 2011. I paid $750 for this card and the eBay item number was 200564550761. Can you please tell me why you don't show it in the completed sales history? When I go to sell this card, it will give it more credibility if the card shows up in VCP. I have other information if you need any including screen shots."

I told you that I had screen shots to show the purchase. Did you ask for them? NO! Your reply was simply, "Since the auction is so old we can not verify it."
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:08 PM
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Leon lets be fair here the fee was not from VCP it was from Seth the auction software person you use. And all Seth had to do was turn on the code we provided to him years ago when we started, something that takes him less then a minute. Sure we can come in at the end of the auction and scrap all the data and input it in our site. But the thing you are missing and this is the key is by having access to your auction as it starts and entering all your items live it then checks 3469 current members want lists for any items you have and they need. When it finds matches sends a email with link to your auction telling them a card they want is now available for them to bid and win.So by you not wanting to be part of the system and paying Seth his money how many potential buyers did you miss out on? And if those notices went out I think you would find a much better return to your consignors.

Whereas all the people using Bob from Simple there is no fee involved at all.
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  #23  
Old 10-27-2011, 01:22 PM
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Being new, I did not know VCP was owned/supported by someone on the board.
But I do know that the buys were not BIN's. I 99.9% refuse to buy BIN on Ebay because they are generally X2, X3, X4 the going price of the card in the segment of the hobby I collect. I stick to auctions only. If I had known, I would have sent the info to VCP. I still have the info in my file, but do not remember which ones.

Charlie
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:22 PM
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I'm sure VCP is not perfect. Nothing is. But I have found it to be an incredibly valuable resource. I can't even say how many times over the membership fee has paid for itself by giving me info to avoid overpaying or undercharging on selling my items. On the few times I have needed assistance, Bobby has been quick and responsive. And for clarity's sake, I do not personally know Bobby. I have never met him. We have only had a handful of email interactions regarding my membership to VCP.
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  #25  
Old 10-27-2011, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyVCP View Post
Leon lets be fair here the fee was not from VCP it was from Seth the auction software person you use. And all Seth had to do was turn on the code we provided to him years ago when we started, something that takes him less then a minute. Sure we can come in at the end of the auction and scrap all the data and input it in our site. But the thing you are missing and this is the key is by having access to your auction as it starts and entering all your items live it then checks 3469 current members want lists for any items you have and they need. When it finds matches sends a email with link to your auction telling them a card they want is now available for them to bid and win.So by you not wanting to be part of the system and paying Seth his money how many potential buyers did you miss out on? And if those notices went out I think you would find a much better return to your consignors.

Whereas all the people using Bob from Simple there is no fee involved at all.
I believe this is Completely untrue from what I was told. I will find the emails in a few hours and post them. I have to run for a business issue right now.
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:42 PM
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Here is what I have Leon:

Leon,

We tried to add your current auction to our system and Seth is playing the extortionist again. Maybe you can talk some sense in him?

Aloha,

Bobby

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Fwd: RE: B&L Feed
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 09:06:46 -0700
From: Carlos Cespedes
To: bobbyvcp@gmail.com



----- Forwarded message from seth@createauction.com -----
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 10:56:21 -0400
From: Seth Nagdeman
Reply-To: seth@createauction.com
Subject: RE: B&L Feed
To: 'Carlos Cespedes'

Carlos,
http://createauctionfeeds.com/feeds/blfall2011.xml



For feeds moving forward there will be a fee of $100 to your company. If
you need it on a rush basis (within 24 hours) there will be a rush fee of
$25.00



_____

Seth Nagdeman

The Leading Online Auction Service Provider
www.createauction.com
voice (888) 340-9903 x85
seth@createauction.com



Hi Seth,



Can I get the feed for B&L



Thanks,



Carlos Cespedes

Sports Card Price Guide & Marketplace

http://www.VintageCardPrices.com
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:45 PM
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Then instead of even trying to talk to Seth you sent me an email saying you would not pay the fee so you wont be a part of VCP or something of that nature. When all you needed to do was talk to Seth and say something like we really want the feed to VCP and if you cant provide it then our next auction we will move to Simple. I am sure he would of gladly taken the minute it takes to provide the feed instead of risk losing a customer.
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  #28  
Old 10-27-2011, 01:47 PM
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I know for me while I like to see BIN sales in VCP, I dont put a lot of weight into them vs the auction prices.

I remember a while back an auction house stopped posting their results to VCP after a few board members posted some bidding results that they felt were bogus and made a pretty good case that something fishy was going on.
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Old 10-27-2011, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smtjoy View Post
I know for me while I like to see BIN sales in VCP, I dont put a lot of weight into them vs the auction prices.

I remember a while back an auction house stopped posting their results to VCP after a few board members posted some bidding results that they felt were bogus and made a pretty good case that something fishy was going on.
That is why Goodwin and Memory Lane wanted out of VCP covering their data.
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  #30  
Old 10-27-2011, 02:59 PM
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Every person is entitled to his own view about the quality and value of VCP. And for those who choose to cancel, I'm not going to argue with their personal choice.

It is a fairly expensive service. In my view (and for my wallet) it continues to be well worth it.

It is not perfect. You want perfection? Where will you get that? You want to independently check every single auction house site and eBay for results regarding every card you are thinking of purchasing? I hope you are retired or unemployed. I'm very happy that VCP provides me with a big chunk of that for a few bucks and a few keystrokes.

Maybe you'll use "book" price? Good luck with that...

All this started over unreported BINs? My view - what a joke! I completely disregard BIN results. I don't care how much one fool overpaid for a card - even a thinly -traded one. This is almost as bad as the dealers who set prices by how much they "have in the card"...I could not care less if they made a bad buy. No effect on my valuation of the item.

Cheers,
Blair

(Unaffiliated with VCP, but I know its value to me.)
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  #31  
Old 10-27-2011, 03:24 PM
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For what it's worth, we have a feed to VCP and as far as I know, we were not charged a fee by our software provider (Simple Auction Site) to set it up. We do pay to advertise on VCP's website and for their service and we have had nothing but good dealings with them.

Best regards,

Kevin Carlson
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Gem Mint Auctions, Inc.
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  #32  
Old 10-27-2011, 03:45 PM
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Default my mistake

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyVCP View Post
Then instead of even trying to talk to Seth you sent me an email saying you would not pay the fee so you wont be a part of VCP or something of that nature. When all you needed to do was talk to Seth and say something like we really want the feed to VCP and if you cant provide it then our next auction we will move to Simple. I am sure he would of gladly taken the minute it takes to provide the feed instead of risk losing a customer.
This was my mistake Bobby. I misunderstood the situation and you are correct. It was our s/w provider requesting to be paid. That being said I don't think Scott and I want to pay for the service, regardless of who is charging the fee. At the end of the day it's less data on your site though. I do use VCP I just wish there were more recorded sales, for whatever reason. regards
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Old 10-27-2011, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Leon View Post
This was my mistake Bobby. I misunderstood the situation and you are correct. It was our s/w provider requesting to be paid. That being said I don't think Scott and I want to pay for the service, regardless of who is charging the fee. At the end of the day it's less data on your site though. I do use VCP I just wish there were more recorded sales, for whatever reason. regards
Just switch over to Simple for your next auction and the problem is solved. You can see there are a few others here that use him with no worries.
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  #34  
Old 10-27-2011, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by BobbyVCP View Post
Just switch over to Simple for your next auction and the problem is solved. You can see there are a few others here that use him with no worries.
Bob is a very nice guy and runs a good company. Seth is a nice guy and has given us very good service and we are staying the course. Once again, my apology for my misapprehension of the emails a month or so ago.
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Old 10-27-2011, 04:19 PM
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It is not perfect. You want perfection? Where will you get that?
Nobody is asking for or expecting perfection. Sure, some mistakes are going to be made. But when 4 of the 5 cards I checked did not show up in VCP, that's a major problem. Sorry if you don't get that. Also, if Bobby would have responded back and acknowledged the mistake and took action to correct the mistake, this thread probably wouldn't have been started.

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All this started over unreported BINs? My view - what a joke! I completely disregard BIN results.
VCP's business it to record actual sales, no matter if it is a BIN or not. If they want to exclude BINs then so be it, but they should state that. I could care less if you disregard BINs or not. The fact of the matter is that they are still transactions and should be recorded by VCP as we are paying for that information.
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Old 10-27-2011, 04:51 PM
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I think that if BIN's were included, most people would want them excluded from the average VCP pricing.
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Old 10-27-2011, 05:01 PM
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Reading the email stream above, do you guys [Bobby, Seth, Leon] realize how it looks to potential consignors and bidders and customers that the controversy is over a $100 access fee?
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Old 10-27-2011, 05:45 PM
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Just switch over to Simple for your next auction and the problem is solved. You can see there are a few others here that use him with no worries.

Why should any auction house have to switch providers. Doesn't my membership fee well cover the cost of that charge. Now you said there are 3000+ members so money is not an excuse. That should be taken care of out of that membership fee we all pay. Just my 2 cent worth.
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:20 PM
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Reading the email stream above, do you guys [Bobby, Seth, Leon] realize how it looks to potential consignors and bidders and customers that the controversy is over a $100 access fee?
+1. It's one thing for a member here to vent about something, but a very different thing for business people to publicly post their correspondence and air things out for all to see. Transparency can be overrated at times.
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Old 10-27-2011, 08:40 PM
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I think that if BIN's were included, most people would want them excluded from the average VCP pricing.
I would, if not I would want them highlighted so I could exclude them
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  #41  
Old 10-27-2011, 09:09 PM
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To note, B&L is still listed on the homepage of VCP, under "Want List Auction Alerts".
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  #42  
Old 10-27-2011, 09:32 PM
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To note, B&L is still listed on the homepage of VCP, under "Want List Auction Alerts".
We had VCP downloads previously but never paid before.
I don't think we want to pay a company to use our data. Other companies handle their affairs their ways. Scott nor myself have anything against VCP. I still use it and like it.
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Old 10-27-2011, 10:12 PM
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Let me get this straight..VCP wants your info, and they want you to pay $100 so they can have that info? That seems odd to me.
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  #44  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:18 PM
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Let me get this straight..VCP wants your info, and they want you to pay $100 so they can have that info? That seems odd to me.
It's not the info I am making reference to it is the 3500+ Want Lists our members will get notices to go to BL and bid on the auction. This is a valuable asset for any auction house to take advantage of to increase traffic and attention to items.
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  #45  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:33 PM
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From what I am reading....

VCP wants data
B&L will give data, but...
B&L utilizes a vendor that will charge B&L $100 to turn on code
B&L isn't interested in paying for that
VCP suggests that B&L change to another vendor that will not charge
B&L is loyal to their existing vendor and is not interested in changing

End Result = Standoff with no data feed from B&L to VCP
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  #46  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:36 PM
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Let me get this straight..VCP wants your info, and they want you to pay $100 so they can have that info? That seems odd to me.

It looks to me like VCP wants the info, but B&L's webhost wants to charge VCP $100 for the feed to get the info.

Looks like an issue between B&L and their webhost, not with VCP.
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  #47  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:50 PM
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True and all it is doing imo is making them both look bad. I am a subscriber to VCP and I think that data is important and should be in there. I have also been a consigner to B & L and I want my lots to have as many bidders as possible and I dont like finding out they could be reaching a larger audience and are not.

This is a PR snafu for both, I really question is it worth the bad press over $100?
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:07 AM
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Yea, I agree that this makes everybody look real bad.

The situation is VCP wants the info and does not charge B&L for it, and provides the code for the feed for free to B&L's webhost. The webhost wants to charge $100 to turn the code on, which B&L doesn't want to pay. They also don't want to switch to a webhost that doesn't charge for this because they're happy with their current one. B&L also believes that their auction data is worth more than VCP notifying its want lists subscribers that a B&L auction has something in their want list.
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  #49  
Old 10-28-2011, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy View Post
Nobody is asking for or expecting perfection. Sure, some mistakes are going to be made. But when 4 of the 5 cards I checked did not show up in VCP, that's a major problem. Sorry if you don't get that. Also, if Bobby would have responded back and acknowledged the mistake and took action to correct the mistake, this thread probably wouldn't have been started.



VCP's business it to record actual sales, no matter if it is a BIN or not. If they want to exclude BINs then so be it, but they should state that. I could care less if you disregard BINs or not. The fact of the matter is that they are still transactions and should be recorded by VCP as we are paying for that information.
"We" are not paying for that information. Most people with any sense disregard BINs entirely. Sorry if you don't get that.

Really? Their business is to record sales? Where are all the results from the tables at the National? They track auctions, which is what matters. The rest is just noise.

But you are right - you should cancel VCP. I'm sure your four BIN transactions are accurately reflected in the current SMR or other resource...hahahahahaha!
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  #50  
Old 10-28-2011, 02:31 AM
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BTW sport, don't get all agitated when people don't agree that your four little BIN transactions somehow make a valuable business into "a joke".

You couldn't care less about my views...guess that makes us even.

But here's a free business tip for you - if you think BIN results are so valuable, go ahead and set up a business accurately tracking BINs and sit back and wait for subscribers to line up with money in hand...and wait...and wait...
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