Out of Touch

[Yoda]

I have been batting about .090 on recent auctions where I have been active. Always hopeful that a new AH might be of interest, I checked out Rabbit Hole to see what was on offer, bidding etc. and must confess I was a bit underwhelmed by their offerings.
Of particular note, was the Ruth Leaf, a well-loved graded 1, which opened, to me at least, at a very high 1k and is already 2k.
This marketplace is for me fraught with peril. I don't know who I am bidding against; well-heeled collectors, collecting clubs, private equity funds, AH's, Amazon or the Good Lord himself.
I am basically a wholesaler, trying to build decent consignments to offer up to a few select AH's. That is proving near impossible, with exponential price records set with every auction.
The sports card market has become one for the big boys. Money has made most of the cards I seek out of reach. I did retail and made out well, but I am too old to try that again. Perhaps I am perpetually stuck in the 2000 card world and still
think that way. The cards haven't changed but the market certainly has.
Finally, I believe the stock market is overbought and likewise the card market. Apologies for the lament.

[4815162342]

John, you missed an opportunity for a great thread title.

[raulus]

Sounds like you're primarily buying from AHs so that you can re-sell through other AHs?

If so, then I agree that you're not likely to find many deals that you can flip that way. I could see a twist on that strategy working, if you were looking to buy obscure stuff that might get overlooked at auction, and then turn around and market it through some other venue, like eBay BIN or some fixed-price marketplace.

There's no question that the everything rally these days sure makes most assets seem crazy expensive, whether we're talking about stocks or real estate or bitcoin or even gold. But while the music is playing, you kind of have to get up and dance, unless you want to sit on all of your cash and just be patient while everything keeps going nuts, in the hope that someday the music will finally stop.

[Brent G.]

I think we're in the midst of another buying frenzy similar to 2020-21. Like then, people are spending more time (and money) in the hobby to avoid looking at the god-awful world outside ... I know I am. There's also an increasing number of educated buyers going after the best of the best. What's different this time is this isn't propped up by free money from the U.S. government.

[Yoda]

Nic, you are right; a lot of the cards I go after are with AH's, but also buy from Ebay, B/S/T, private trades. My current business model is busted. Obscurity is a great idea, but how do you explore obscurity.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

John, you missed an opportunity for a great thread title.

'Brother, you best listen to me right now.'

[bcbgcbrcb]

Hey John:

I feel the same way as you do in many respects and I assume that we are talking about vintage and not modern cards. First off, I have to agree that most/all of the cards that I REALLY want for the PC have gotten completely out of reach today. As far as buying to resell these days, I believe you can break things down into three categories. If you’ve got “big bucks” to spend (5-6 figures), a lot of money can be made right now in this overheated market, as the premium cards continue to set records (this could all change tomorrow but I am only speaking for today). If you have the funds to make 4-figure purchases regularly, the key is to buy high eye-appeal cards maybe 10-20% below comps and resell at around 20-30% above comps, highlighting the “premier for the grade” aspect. This only works if you DON’T HAVE TO sell them very quickly in order to recoup the money to keep this process going. Finally, if you’re on more of a shoestring budget, you need to buy mostly at card shows, squeeze the seller out of every last dollar that you can and resell as close to comps as you can get. Outside of these strategies, I don’t see this being a very lucrative endeavor these days. I continue to try to do this for a living and am only still around because of the giant head start that I had from my 2004-2014 collection.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

John, you missed an opportunity for a great thread title.

The cardboard is too damn high!!!

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Hey John:

I feel the same way as you do in many respects and I assume that we are talking about vintage and not modern cards. First off, I have to agree that most/all of the cards that I REALLY want for the PC have gotten completely out of reach today. As far as buying to resell these days, I believe you can break things down into three categories. If you’ve got “big bucks” to spend (5-6 figures), a lot of money can be made right now in this overheated market, as the premium cards continue to set records (this could all change tomorrow but I am only speaking for today). If you have the funds to make 4-figure purchases regularly, the key is to buy high eye-appeal cards maybe 10-20% below comps and resell at around 20-30% above comps, highlighting the “premier for the grade” aspect. This only works if you DON’T HAVE TO sell them very quickly in order to recoup the money to keep this process going. Finally, if you’re on more of a shoestring budget, you need to buy mostly at card shows, squeeze the seller out of every last dollar that you can and resell as close to comps as you can get. Outside of these strategies, I don’t see this being a very lucrative endeavor these days. I continue to try to do this for a living and am only still around because of the giant head start that I had from my 2004-2014 collection.

Phil, great advise and pretty much what I am unsuccessfully trying to do now. The number of cards I have been the underbidder are just the cards you refer to. Sniping, I suppose, is the answer, and my air defenses are weak. Like you, I sort of survive on preCovid purchases, purchased when prices seem high but sane.
All I know is that I have not taken on any debt to buy cards and worry about those that might be heavily leveraged to take on acquisitions they only plan on flipping in a couple of months. Markets ebb and flow but sometimes the dam bursts.

[Exhibitman]

Some things that work for me, at least in terms of commerce:

Beat the bushes. I hit every antique show, flea market, yard sale and estate sale I can find. I don't always find stuff but sometimes I do.

Broaden your reach. Maybe you study up on nonsports and try to make money there.

Obscurity means lack of price transparency. I look for categories of items where pricing is not easily understood.

Price discipline is paramount when purchasing. It is a numbers game. I have a price and that's it. If the seller says no, I walk (or at least I should; still licking my wounds over a bad deal at the show in August).

Follow Mr. Keeler's advice (thread needs a card anyway)



I hit 'em where they ain't. If there is a surge in excitement over Mantle, buy Aaron. If T206 has an extreme year, buy T205.

In the collecting arena, I used to just grab whatever caught my eye. Now, what works best for me is to try and go after only very specific cards for specific reasons. Like, I wanted to complete my E254 Tinker-Evers-Chance, so I went after a Chance in LOTG. I went to the National looking to upgrade some specific cards.

[bmattioli]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Some things that work for me, at least in terms of commerce:

Beat the bushes. I hit every antique show, flea market, yard sale and estate sale I can find. I don't always find stuff but sometimes I do.

Broaden your reach. Maybe you study up on nonsports and try to make money there.

Obscurity means lack of price transparency. I look for categories of items where pricing is not easily understood.

Good advise.. Gotta dig everywhere..

[Kutcher55]

Originally Posted by Brent G.

I think we're in the midst of another buying frenzy similar to 2020-21. Like then, people are spending more time (and money) in the hobby to avoid looking at the god-awful world outside ... I know I am. There's also an increasing number of educated buyers going after the best of the best. What's different this time is this isn't propped up by free money from the U.S. government.

Yep I concur.

[brunswickreeves]

There’s definitely been a fascinating shift in buying and selling since Covid. I’ve dialed in my PC focus to keep resources and time laser focused. I’m also increasing time and energy on maximizing my own core competencies to create the economics possible for the cards I love. Reason being is that:

eBay: Buyers have more competition than ever to win under radar auctions, thus driving up prices. Buyers are also facing elevated prices for BIN items, given a proliferation of business sellers maximizing profit, vs individual sellers less knowable about their collection’s value or happy to sell for some profit and to a help a collector fulfill a mission. Thus non professional buyer’s flipping of cards may be less profitable and require significantly more time on the platform to find and snag gems.

eBay: Sellers pay higher fees (unless registering as a storefront), pay tax in some cases, and have to wait sometimes weeks after a sale for money to hit their bank, after their sold card meanders down the new eBay authentication path and then gets repackaged and sent to the buyer.

AH: More total number of auctions each year drive increasing costs of iconic cards (eg 52 Topps Mantle or CJ Jackson). Greater competition of more ‘investors’ and ‘speculators’ also drives up prices, sometimes even causing one to bid against themselves. Sellers are also turning more to AHs to maximize their card’s exposure and profit, reducing availability on eBay.

Seller websites, FB, IG: Growing presence on social media may be rising card prices through greater awareness, being part of a collector group, and FOMA.

[OhioLawyerF5]

There are more collectors in the hobby than ever before. Collectors tend to pay market price for cards as they are planning on keeping them. The more collectors in the marketplace, the less room for flippers like yourself to make easy money. And frankly, I think it's for the best. The fewer flippers and middlemen trying to make a buck between the owner of a card and the collector who will end up with it long term the better for collectors.

[ALBB]

Yea, everybody looking for a deal, or a steal of a deal, or hustling around,, looking under " rocks" ....... me Id rather go the lazy way...sit on my butt...trying to win stuff off Ebay !

[Kutcher55]

People continue to return to the hobby. I’m 52 and my close high school buddy got back into vintage this year. I’m sure he’s not the only one. Much like during Covid times when the world turned sideways people take comfort in vintage sports cards to help cope with the increasingly scary outside world. The markets also play a role in this. Where there was a lot of free money floating around during Covid and lower income workers were impacted more negatively than people who could work remotely, now you have a year where the markets are all climbing like crazy. Who knows how long that will last but you have to think it’s driving prices up. Also this feeling that the dollar is weakening drives people to put money into other assets, like gold and like baseball cards.

[JJ McGraw]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

There are more collectors in the hobby than ever before. Collectors tend to pay market price for cards as they are planning on keeping them. The more collectors in the marketplace, the less room for flippers like yourself to make easy money. And frankly, I think it's for the best. The fewer flippers and middlemen trying to make a buck between the owner of a card and the collector who will end up with it long term the better for collectors.

Couldn’t agree more as a collector. But auctions , as we all see, are a crazy place right now. Even here on the BST , I see a lot of high end cards in the categories I follow and not much middle of the road. Facebook groups and eBay tend to be the places to get deals , but with eBay, you must factor in the tax and shipping , which can add $20 to the price. I got back into the hobby last fall and am very glad I did, having to relearn the current overall “lay of the land” since I had stopped. And even though that was barely a year ago, I’d hate to be re-entering right now, especially without the knowledge and insight I’ve gained since then. It’s still the greatest hobby and hunt will never be anything but thrilling and rewarding……a collector has to figure out what works for them…..and,of course, their pocket book.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Nic, you are right; a lot of the cards I go after are with AH's, but also buy from Ebay, B/S/T, private trades. My current business model is busted. Obscurity is a great idea, but how do you explore obscurity.

Here’s an example of a recent win for me based on an obscure issue. Picked this hand cut beauty up a few years ago for $1,829. Subsequently bought a nicer looking one, so this one was available to sell. I’ve been trying to sell it on eBay for a while, without success, so moved it a few months ago over to the new REA marketplace. Just sold a couple of weeks ago for $17,500. After REA’s 5% cut, I netted $16,625. Just got my check today! There are only 3 graded by PSA, and since I still have another one, I was willing to part with this one.

Of course, the government will take $6k of my profits here, so it’s not quite as extreme as it would seem before taxes, but still worked out pretty well for me.

[Snapolit1]

I see most high end cards going through the roof and most other stuff not going up or just a little. My memorabilia sales in 2025 have been nothing to write home about, and some have been downright disasterous.

Sort of like real estate in my neighborhood. The million dollar listed homes are going off a $1.5M, and the $380,000 homes are selling for basically $380,000.

Maybe a lot of people are sitting on crypto profits. I just don't understand where all this money is coming from. All I hear is bitching about how expensive everything has gotten.

[steve B]

I've been in that same rut multiple times since the late 70's. I get used to prices, cant find "bargains" anymore and have a slump and work on other hobbies. Then something gets me back into it, a bargain found or something new learned, and suddenly I have to get used to a whole new price structure.

Still haven't gotten used to vg T206 commons being almost 100

[marcmandel]

Yoda, oh, wise one. Rather than me risking the wrath of many and a flooded inbox for what I'm about to offer up as a suggestion for salvation, please reach out to me privately, and we'll chat. I may have a solution that will prove a winner for what you're looking to do. I'm at marc@wowmoments.us and we'll talk there, then. Thnx.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I am basically a wholesaler, trying to build decent consignments to offer up to a few select AH's.

The issue is…EVERYONE is trying to do this.

Every day more people move into the hobby to try to do stuff like this, making it harder and harder.

[Exhibitman]

"Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded". Yogi Berra

Basically, the current trends reward incumbents, those lucky (or prescient) enough to have man caves packed with vintage cards bought back in the day. Everyone else has to find stuff in the wild or pony up.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I see most high end cards going through the roof and most other stuff not going up or just a little. My memorabilia sales in 2025 have been nothing to write home about, and some have been downright disasterous.

Sort of like real estate in my neighborhood. The million dollar listed homes are going off a $1.5M, and the $380,000 homes are selling for basically $380,000.

Maybe a lot of people are sitting on crypto profits. I just don't understand where all this money is coming from. All I hear is bitching about how expensive everything has gotten.

Define "high end"; that covers a lot of territory.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Basically, the current trends reward incumbents, those lucky (or prescient) enough to have man caves packed with vintage cards bought back in the day. Everyone else has to find stuff in the wild or pony up.

Yes, this^^^ I wish I was buying up pre-war cards in the 1970s. I suppose it's all relative. There are cards that I picked up in 2019 that have gone up a lot since then.

Finding a bargain is hard...it's always been hard. But with more people in the market it's harder. Occasionally, I find great bargains in an auction while lots of people are chasing the high end items. But I have to follow hundreds of items to just get one. It makes collecting slower but that's the game.

The OP is trying to trade into market inefficiencies. That's called arbitrage. With lot of market participants and an efficient market, arbitrage opportunities are few and far between.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Yes, this^^^ I wish I was buying up pre-war cards in the 1970s. I suppose it's all relative. There are cards that I picked up in 2019 that have gone up a lot since then.

Finding a bargain is hard...it's always been hard. But with more people in the market it's harder. Occasionally, I find great bargains in an auction while lots of people are chasing the high end items. But I have to follow hundreds of items to just get one. It makes collecting slower but that's the game.

The OP is trying to trade into market inefficiencies. That's called arbitrage. With lot of market participants and an efficient market, arbitrage opportunities are few and far between.

That's exactly where I find myself; playing the arbitrage game with diminishing opportunities and reduced returns.
Thanks for all the positive input. Much appreciated, and I will refocus my energies and capital in a different direction. And, Nic, I loved your bit with the Mays Hire's card; a win/win and shows that the veil of obscurity can be pierced.

[gunboat82]

I've always been a bit out of touch, but lately I feel like I'm on a different planet. The latest Clean Sweep auction has made me question all of my everything I thought I knew about current values. Some of the cards -- in particular Ruths and Gehrigs -- are already priced higher than I thought they'd be after the 22% premium is added. I think some of these are going to set sales records for low-grade copies with average to below-average eye appeal.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

I've always been a bit out of touch, but lately I feel like I'm on a different planet. The latest Clean Sweep auction has made me question all of my everything I thought I knew about current values. Some of the cards -- in particular Ruths and Gehrigs -- are already priced higher than I thought they'd be after the 22% premium is added. I think some of these are going to set sales records for low-grade copies with average to below-average eye appeal.

I share your shock...ante'd up for this one in the not too distant past for far beyond my wildest nightmare price but I wanted to make sure I got one before it got even higher:



Some stuff I have I probably don't have if I had to buy it today.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by gunboat82

I've always been a bit out of touch, but lately I feel like I'm on a different planet. The latest Clean Sweep auction has made me question all of my everything I thought I knew about current values. Some of the cards -- in particular Ruths and Gehrigs -- are already priced higher than I thought they'd be after the 22% premium is added. I think some of these are going to set sales records for low-grade copies with average to below-average eye appeal.

I'm with you Mike. I guess I'm going to have to cross a Ruth off my list. I am grateful I got one many years ago. So at least I have one. But prices are just insane.

[timber63401]

The split between true collectors and investors/flippers have never been more skewered. Everyone is trying to squeeze all the profit out of everything. I never feel bad for people trying to make money flipping cards and failing. The market is way wonky right now and something has to give eventually I keep thinking the give is gonna be a price crash but maybe the give is just going to be the common man will be priced out permanently. If I could flip a magic switch we all would wake up tomorrow to a crashed market. Nothing I would love more then 1000 dollar 33 Goudey Ruths.

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by timber63401

The split between true collectors and investors/flippers have never been more skewered. Everyone is trying to squeeze all the profit out of everything. I never feel bad for people trying to make money flipping cards and failing. The market is way wonky right now and something has to give eventually I keep thinking the give is gonna be a price crash but maybe the give is just going to be the common man will be priced out permanently. If I could flip a magic switch we all would wake up tomorrow to a crashed market. Nothing I would love more than 1000 dollar 33 Goudey Ruths.

It seems to me that a total market crash for vintage is pretty much impossible at this point in the near-to-medium term, absent a broader economic collapse. There are more than enough of us who would start buying way before prices dropped that significantly.

Long-term, there’s the much-speculated irrelevance of vintage as our generations die off. But I’m hoping to have another 40 years or so (I’m 48), and I think there’s a pretty sustainable vintage buyer base around my age. 15-20 years after that? Not so sure.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

The OP is trying to trade into market inefficiencies. That's called arbitrage. With lot of market participants and an efficient market, arbitrage opportunities are few and far between.

Agreed. This is exactly why I started collecting tickets and feel there is real upside in most other card-adjacent items, like photos, game-used, unopened, autos, etc. Those markets are much more fragmented- they are less understood and there is less information (price guides, grading data, etc), which leads to fewer participants. However, as cards continue their run, people priced out or looking for other opportunities will start buying the closest alternatives, which I think are tickets and photos. And, as more people buy those alternatives, more information is collected, collated, and distributed, and the more reliable that market becomes, thus attracting more participants, including “investors”, and it continues to build from there.

The upside is in the card-adjacencies. And, frankly, they are cooler than cards in many ways.

“People will come Ray. People will most definitely come”. Terrance Mann

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by ASF123

It seems to me that a total market crash for vintage is pretty much impossible at this point in the near-to-medium term, absent a broader economic collapse. There are more than enough of us who would start buying way before prices dropped that significantly.

Long-term, there’s the much-speculated irrelevance of vintage as our generations die off. But I’m hoping to have another 40 years or so (I’m 48), and I think there’s a pretty sustainable vintage buyer base around my age. 15-20 years after that? Not so sure.

Not saying that a crash is likely or not...but one of the characteristics of a bubble is the belief that it's different this time and that things can only go up.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Not saying that a crash is likely or not...but one of the characteristics of a bubble is the belief that it's different this time and that things can only go up.

Except when it comes to vintage sports cards it seems; someday never comes.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by ASF123

It seems to me that a total market crash for vintage is pretty much impossible at this point in the near-to-medium term, absent a broader economic collapse. There are more than enough of us who would start buying way before prices dropped that significantly.

Long-term, there’s the much-speculated irrelevance of vintage as our generations die off. But I’m hoping to have another 40 years or so (I’m 48), and I think there’s a pretty sustainable vintage buyer base around my age. 15-20 years after that? Not so sure.

While perhaps the numbers will drop, there’ll always be new blood joining the vintage hunt. As long as there are nostalgic men 40+ with some money and an appreciation for history, they’ll be there. I got back into the hobby to collect signed cards from my youth in the ‘80s, and a year later was all-in on pre-war. This site is full of those people.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Except when it comes to vintage sports cards it seems; someday never comes.

Crashes have come and gone. The market has just come roaring back, although sometimes it took a few years to really get back to pre-crash levels.

Certainly there was a crash around 93 after the big runup from late 80s and early 90s, and then another around the Great Recession. I suppose we can debate just how far things fell each time and whether that really constitutes a full sized crash or just a minor pullback, but there were definite declines of substantial percentages.

[tulsaboy]

Originally Posted by timber63401

The split between true collectors and investors/flippers have never been more skewered. Everyone is trying to squeeze all the profit out of everything. I never feel bad for people trying to make money flipping cards and failing.

It's a hobby. A complete and totally unnecessary thing. I suspect for the overwhelming majority of card collectors, it's just fun. It's supposed to be fun. I think it's much more miserable when you're focused (panicked) about trying to make money with it. There are options for every budget across all segments of the hobby, if you are actually interested in it as a hobby. It's completely unrealistic to expect that we will be able to buy 33 Goudey Ruths for $500 anytime in the future, but there are plenty of vintage options for under $100- even with high-profile sets like T206s and 52 Topps. The problem arises when someone is trying to flip for profit. I adhere to a simple approach- I collect what interests me and what makes me smile, within the budget that I have. I have plenty of nice things, because I've been doing that for 30+ years. But I couldn't care less about trying to flip them for a profit. I'm sure I could, at this point, but having them, collecting them, is the fun part for me. I know that my approach is not the only approach, but I agree with the poster above- I have little sympathy for flippers who are sad that it's gotten harder to sqeeze more money out of collectors like me.

Just my 2 cents.

kevin

[ASF123]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

Not saying that a crash is likely or not...but one of the characteristics of a bubble is the belief that it's different this time and that things can only go up.

I’m not saying things can only go up. Just that a total crash seems highly unlikely - again, barring a broader economic collapse.

[Seven]

I empathize with a lot that's been said in this thread. I've become a little disillusioned with the Hobby over the course of this past year. Haven't even been active here on Net54 since February of this year.

Collecting is a life long journey, I've been told this and have repeated it to others. The unfortunate thing at the moment is that cardboard has become an asset class. Vintage, modern it doesn't matter people are rapidly buying up a storm, with no end in sight. On the bright side at least the cards were purchasing are of players who actually existed and are noteworthy. I truly feel bad for the collectors of Pokemon cards and the likes, with how wild and crazy that market has become.

Up is down, left is right in our Hobby nowadays. We're certainly in some turbulent economic times; Gold has hit 4000 an ounce. I don't know if their will be a proverbial crash in what we collect or even the economy. All I know is that as a 30-something whose barely making over six figures, I cannot collect the cards I want at the moment. It's either save for a house or buy cardboard. And as much as I want to do the second one, I cannot live in a house made out of Babe Ruths and Mickey Mantles

[Swadewade51]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Agreed. This is exactly why I started collecting tickets and feel there is real upside in most other card-adjacent items, like photos, game-used, unopened, autos, etc.

We've seen you posting some huge tickets recently, are you going to dip your toes into photos and other adjacencies as well?

Sent from my SM-S721U1 using Tapatalk

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by Swadewade51

We've seen you posting some huge tickets recently, are you going to dip your toes into photos and other adjacencies as well?

Sent from my SM-S721U1 using Tapatalk

Yes, I already have (sort of). I have gone after a few major type 1 photos (a rare Einstein tongue out and Mays the Catch), but did not win either. I almost went after the Babe Bows out in the last Goldin auction, but I decided to hold off. I look at the/consider photos often, but to date I have only gone for major things that have very special provenance. That may change soon. My only game used is the Demaryius Thomas jersey he wore when he caught Peyton Manning's record setting 61st TD pass. I look often at awards and stuff but have never pulled the trigger.

I have also started looking outside of sports at things like entertainment and historical memorabilia and items. Lots of stiff out there to collect/invest in.

[JJ McGraw]

Originally Posted by tulsaboy

It's a hobby. A complete and totally unnecessary thing. I suspect for the overwhelming majority of card collectors, it's just fun. It's supposed to be fun. I think it's much more miserable when you're focused (panicked) about trying to make money with it. There are options for every budget across all segments of the hobby, if you are actually interested in it as a hobby. It's completely unrealistic to expect that we will be able to buy 33 Goudey Ruths for $500 anytime in the future, but there are plenty of vintage options for under $100- even with high-profile sets like T206s and 52 Topps. The problem arises when someone is trying to flip for profit. I adhere to a simple approach- I collect what interests me and what makes me smile, within the budget that I have. I have plenty of nice things, because I've been doing that for 30+ years. But I couldn't care less about trying to flip them for a profit. I'm sure I could, at this point, but having them, collecting them, is the fun part for me. I know that my approach is not the only approach, but I agree with the poster above- I have little sympathy for flippers who are sad that it's gotten harder to sqeeze more money out of collectors like me.

Just my 2 cents.

kevin

AMEN KEVIN…..couldn’t have said it better!

[Exhibitman]

James, I didn't have the money to spend on cards the way I wanted to as I supported and raised my family so I made a deal with myself: I eat when I kill. The money coming out finances what goes back in. if I don't have it I don't spend it. If I want to go after a card, I figure out what I can sell to do it. And I try to do it profitably. A surge like the one we're in now, ride that sucker like a big wave after a storm. This stuff is cyclical. There are very few cards that are not going to come back up for sale in the medium term. I hold the few that don't. The rest I enjoy until the price is right and then I get out. For now. I've built then sold a 1954 Topps set 3 times. Starting over is more fun than holding static.

Like it or not, we are all flippers and investors in some respect. Sure, you may not sell but your heirs will. Or your kids will when you are salted away in a facility obliviously drooling into your oatmeal. So why not just go with it and admit that the finances play a role? Trust me, you'll feel better not being intellectually dishonest. I can only speak to my experience. Once I got real with myself and learned to hold two ideas in my mind at once (that cards are fun and that cards are investments), I found it very freeing. It is so much easier to consciously aim for both profit and fun than to pretend the money side is irrelevant or nonexistent. I discovered that when I did that, my hesitation at buying a really special piece went away because I understood that I could and would be able to sell it down the line after I finish enjoying it. Cards aren't fleeting like a good meal, they are permanent, like old man stink in a recliner. My friends who don't collect consume their fun; I invest in it. It also opens your mind to fresh angles, like Ryan's pivot to card-adjacent stuff. Me too. Bought my first slabbed ticket recently, and it wasn't baseball.



Ayrton Senna's 1st F1 Victory.

I love old cardboard. It is a happy place for me. I also love turning a profit on old cardboard. That it is a happy place for me. Collectors get the endorphin hits of acquisition and ownership. I get three endorphin hits for my money: when I buy, when I own, when I cash out.

[Seven]

Very well said, Adam. And that is an absolutely fantastic piece for Senna. Shame he passed so young, and so tragically.

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

James, I didn't have the money to spend on cards the way I wanted to as I supported and raised my family so I made a deal with myself: I eat when I kill. The money coming out finances what goes back in. if I don't have it I don't spend it. If I want to go after a card, I figure out what I can sell to do it. And I try to do it profitably. A surge like the one we're in now, ride that sucker like a big wave after a storm. This stuff is cyclical. There are very few cards that are not going to come back up for sale in the medium term. I hold the few that don't. The rest I enjoy until the price is right and then I get out. For now. I've built then sold a 1954 Topps set 3 times. Starting over is more fun than holding static.

Like it or not, we are all flippers and investors in some respect. Sure, you may not sell but your heirs will. Or your kids will when you are salted away in a facility obliviously drooling into your oatmeal. So why not just go with it and admit that the finances play a role? Trust me, you'll feel better not being intellectually dishonest. I can only speak to my experience. Once I got real with myself and learned to hold two ideas in my mind at once (that cards are fun and that cards are investments), I found it very freeing. It is so much easier to consciously aim for both profit and fun than to pretend the money side is irrelevant or nonexistent. I discovered that when I did that, my hesitation at buying a really special piece went away because I understood that I could and would be able to sell it down the line after I finish enjoying it. Cards aren't fleeting like a good meal, they are permanent, like old man stink in a recliner. My friends who don't collect consume their fun; I invest in it. It also opens your mind to fresh angles, like Ryan's pivot to card-adjacent stuff. Me too. Bought my first slabbed ticket recently, and it wasn't baseball.



Ayrton Senna's 1st F1 Victory.

I love old cardboard. It is a happy place for me. I also love turning a profit on old cardboard. That it is a happy place for me. Collectors get the endorphin hits of acquisition and ownership. I get three endorphin hits for my money: when I buy, when I own, when I cash out.

It is not intellectually dishonest to differentiate between collecting cards and buying cards with the sole intent on flipping them for profit as your income. It is intellectually dishonest to suggest they are the same. Yes, we all understand our cards have market value and that one day they will be sold, hopefully for more than we paid. That is not even remotely the same as someone seeking arbitrage opportunities to make money in an inefficient market. In the former, the card is the object of the hobby. In the latter, the card is irelevant as it is merely a vehicle for profit.

[toledo_mudhen]

Originally Posted by ASF123

Long-term, there’s the much-speculated irrelevance of vintage as our generations die off. But I’m hoping to have another 40 years or so (I’m 48), and I think there’s a pretty sustainable vintage buyer base around my age. 15-20 years after that? Not so sure.

I'm your Huckleberry - 68 Years old and have been collecting for easily over 35 years.

I also think there are more guys out there in my age group than you might think -

[JollyElm]

Every time I see the thread title, my blue-eyed soul, two-part harmony brain immediately begins singing...

hallandoatesoutoftouch.jpg

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by OhioLawyerF5

It is not intellectually dishonest to differentiate between collecting cards and buying cards with the sole intent on flipping them for profit as your income. It is intellectually dishonest to suggest they are the same. Yes, we all understand our cards have market value and that one day they will be sold, hopefully for more than we paid. That is not even remotely the same as someone seeking arbitrage opportunities to make money in an inefficient market. In the former, the card is the object of the hobby. In the latter, the card is irelevant as it is merely a vehicle for profit.

It can be both. I can collect and have fun while strategically trying to maximize my returns when I sell. What I object to are the people who sanctimoniously declare that money doesn't matter. This is America: money always matters.

Of all of the people that I used to know
Most never adjusted to the great big world
I see them lurking in book stores
Working for the Public Radio
Carrying their babies around in a sack on their back
Moving careful and slow

It's money that matters
Hear what I say
It's money that matters
In the USA

All of these people are much brighter than I
In any fair system they would flourish and thrive
But they barely survive
They eke out a living and they barely survive
When I was a young boy, maybe thirteen
I took a hard look around me and asked what does it mean?
So I talked to my father, and he didn't know
And I talked to my friend and he didn't know
And I talked to my brother and he didn't know
And I talked to everybody that I knew

It's money that matters
Now you know that it's true
It's money that matters
Whatever you do

Then I talked to a man lived up on the county line
I was washing his car with a friend of mine
He was a little fat guy in a red jumpsuit
I said "You look kind of funny"
He said "I know that I do"
"But I got a great big house on the hill here
And a great big blonde wife inside it
And a great big pool in my backyard and another great big pool beside it

Sonny it's money that matters, hear what I say
It's money that matters in the USA
It's money that matters
Now you know that it's true
It's money that matters whatever you do
--Randy Newman

[OhioLawyerF5]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

It can be both. I can collect and have fun while strategically trying to maximize my returns when I sell. What I object to are the people who sanctimoniously declare that money doesn't matter. This is America: money always matters.

Of all of the people that I used to know
Most never adjusted to the great big world
I see them lurking in book stores
Working for the Public Radio
Carrying their babies around in a sack on their back
Moving careful and slow

It's money that matters
Hear what I say
It's money that matters
In the USA

All of these people are much brighter than I
In any fair system they would flourish and thrive
But they barely survive
They eke out a living and they barely survive
When I was a young boy, maybe thirteen
I took a hard look around me and asked what does it mean?
So I talked to my father, and he didn't know
And I talked to my friend and he didn't know
And I talked to my brother and he didn't know
And I talked to everybody that I knew

It's money that matters
Now you know that it's true
It's money that matters
Whatever you do

Then I talked to a man lived up on the county line
I was washing his car with a friend of mine
He was a little fat guy in a red jumpsuit
I said "You look kind of funny"
He said "I know that I do"
"But I got a great big house on the hill here
And a great big blonde wife inside it
And a great big pool in my backyard and another great big pool beside it

Sonny it's money that matters, hear what I say
It's money that matters in the USA
It's money that matters
Now you know that it's true
It's money that matters whatever you do
--Randy Newman

Did you miss the part where I recognized we all consider value as all of our cards will be sold at some point? And how I was referring to people like OP who aren't in it for collecting at all, just to flip cards for income? Refusing to acknowledge that distinction is intellectually dishonest. So while it can be both, for some it's not both. And THAT was the topic and the post you replied to.