Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

WhenItWasAHobby · #1 11-24-2019, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOX75

Thanks for the warm welcome guys...sincerely appreciate it! I've been working on videos on the trimming and altering fraud for months and plan to continue. There are times when I am stuck because of a lack of knowledge about the Hobby and it would be helpful to have some help from the users here during those moments. Thanks again!

Impressive video Keith! Keep up the great work!

Peter_Spaeth · #2 11-24-2019, 10:41 AM

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

1952boyntoncollector · #3 11-24-2019, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

calvindog · #4 11-24-2019, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Huh

Peter_Spaeth · #5 11-24-2019, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Then again, they may not.

1952boyntoncollector · #6 11-24-2019, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Then again, they may not.

right besides a few things..most things in life are always uncertain. Can only go by the cards (trimmed or not) that are dealt

swarmee · #7 11-24-2019, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The way PSA gave out PSA 10s to one or 2 people and the rest didnt have the same opportunity, you would think all of those PSA 8 card owners may have a cause of action for their grading fees

Have you read the Eagle Eye Joe thread about BGS and Joe Clemons. I bet you'd have a better winnable case with that one.

WhenItWasAHobby · #8 11-24-2019, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I gave up on trying to make a pun using Cheevers.

Presented without comment.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...7&postcount=27

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Johnny630 · #9 11-24-2019, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Wow that’s a Bombshell If this is true. This is Dreadful Shameful.

It seems PSA only cares about the major altering business rather than collectors. This is disgraceful another depressing page turns sour.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 11-24-2019, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Wow that�s a Bombshell If this is true. This is Dreadful Shameful.

It seems PSA only cares about the major altering business rather than collectors. This is disgraceful another depressing page turns sour.

I have no doubt that PSA fights tooth and nail in individual cases to justify not paying people, but I have serious doubt that they have disclaimed the guarantee totally.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 11-24-2019, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

Mark17 · #12 11-24-2019, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

Peter_Spaeth · #13 11-24-2019, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

It would be the owner who would have the claim, not PWCC, if the market price is higher than the refunded purchase price. How is PWCC out anything? It chose to refund presumably because of its own role.

Johnny630 · #14 11-24-2019, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Peter, can you envision a scenario where PWCC refunds the purchase price, PSA refuses to honor its guarantee, and PWCC ends up suing PSA?

That would be very interesting to watch. Because if PWCC is honoring its guarantees (by accepting returns) but PSA is not............

I can’t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

Peter_Spaeth · #15 11-24-2019, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I can�t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

To me the more likely scenario is PSA issuing a refund and then going after PWCC for violating the terms of service by submitting altered cards.

Mark17 · #16 11-24-2019, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I can�t speak for Peter but I can absolutely see your above scenario unfolding.

Customer wants full restitution, PWCC says they will only refund the purchase price, customer goes after PWCC so PWCC, as the submitter of the card for grading, then goes after PSA.

It occurs to me that PWCC already has its lawyer, and I really wonder if something's cooking......

WhenItWasAHobby · #17 11-25-2019, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well we saw Sloan urge people to go to their sellers first, way back when this first broke. That said, I am aware of at least one instance where PSA paid someone whose cards had appreciated the difference between his purchase price (which PWCC refunded) and market value. This is the first I've heard of PSA allegedly expressly disclaiming their guarantee altogether. Too many levels of hearsay for me to take it as gospel.

Now that you mention it, you're correct on the Sloan statement - which is appalling in my opinion, particularly since PSA is still advertising a guarantee on their website:

The PSA Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity
This policy is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. It ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder. PSA also guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

https://www.psacard.com/about/whypsa/

and checking their Grading Standards, they still regard these modifications as ungradable:

PSA will not grade cards that bear evidence of trimming, re-coloring, restoration, or any other forms of tampering, or are of questionable authenticity.

https://www.psacard.com/resources/gr...andards/#cards

So legally, (although I'm not a lawyer) I can't see how they can weasel their way out of this and I'd recommend that all PSA collectors to print out the guarantee and Ungradable Card grading standards for their own protection for future disputes.

Peter_Spaeth · #18 11-25-2019, 06:56 AM

Meanwhile, as best I can determine, the guarantee that used to appear on S_C's website remains missing in action. I asked about this months ago and was assured they were just tweaking the language and that it would reappear shortly.

bnorth · #19 11-25-2019, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Meanwhile, as best I can determine, the guarantee that used to appear on S_C's website remains missing in action. I asked about this months ago and was assured they were just tweaking the language and that it would reappear shortly.

My memory is shot so please correct me if I am wrong. Wasn't SGCs guarantee on cards that they would regrade the card and give it the proper grade?

I don't remember them having a guarantee like PSA has.

Bigdaddy · #20 11-30-2019, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

Now that you mention it, you're correct on the Sloan statement - which is appalling in my opinion, particularly since PSA is still advertising a guarantee on their website:

The PSA Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity
This policy is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. It ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in its tamper-evident holder. PSA also guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

https://www.psacard.com/about/whypsa/

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

1952boyntoncollector · #21 12-01-2019, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

yet thus far seems to be an non issue and consensus of this forum is not much will change with PSA.....i would think if a poll was made, most people will think nothing will change but thats just my opinion...someone can always create a poll and prove me wrong...

Peter_Spaeth · #22 12-01-2019, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like there is enough room in that statement to drive a truck through. Who is the guarantee for - only the original seller or any buyer down the road? And it seems like it's only the grade that is guaranteed - could they just take a card that was mis-graded, say altered but still given an number grade, and reholder it with an 'Authentic - Altered' and call that their guarantee? Holding them accountable would be like what Willie Stargell said of trying to hit Koufax, "trying to drink coffee with a fork".

The guarantee is not ambiguous at all. It covers marketplace purchasers (that was the whole point) and certainly applies to altered cards that were originally given numerical grades. PSA does not dispute this. The issue, rather, is application of the guarantee in individual cases, where they can control their payout just by sticking with the original grade.

benjulmag · #23 11-25-2019, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

The body count just increases.....

I read through the entire thread and in addition to the Cheevers card, there was some VERY ENLIGHTENING BIT OF NEWS IF TRUE (maybe the bubble has finally burst and they see this as their only way of surviving as a business):

"A PSA representative told a collector at the Chicago show this weekend that they don't issue refunds for altered cards.

Last week, PSA returned a collector's proven trimmed card in the same PSA 10 slab that was sent in to receive compensation under their Grade Guarantee. They were told to seek a refund from the seller. The only problem is the card has quadrupled in value since they purchased it.

Good responses there when PSA doesn't even want to acknowledge or honor their Grade Guarantee."

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...2&postcount=59

I'd be curious if anyone else had heard about this stance allegedly held by PSA? Any comments regardless?

The reality IMO is that the number of altered slabbed cards, if exposed, would break PSA under their guaranty. Accordingly, to hear PSA allegedly take the position I highlighted in red does not surprise me in the least.

As yet this contingent liability has been kept under control because the market price of PSA slabbed cards has not been impacted to create the kind of financial loss that would induce card owners to spend the significant resources to sue under the guaranty. As the outing continues, presumably along with continued investigations by law enforcement, public knowledge of the fraud will increase. As has been noted, the question is whether it will increase to the point that the stock price of Collectors Universe will begin to fall, along with the market value of PSA slabbed cards.

Earlier I made a post expressing skepticism that absent a new TPG company that uses as part of its business model the outing of altered cards to gain market share, public knowledge may not increase to the level to threaten PSA. Now I simply don't know, and would not be surprised to see this all start to unravel sooner than might be expected.

This is a massive fraud folks, and based on Keith's video, raises the question if and to what extent PSA is in cahoots with the card doctors.

TPG was supposed to take us out of the wild west when deciding whether and how much to pay for a card. Peter's checklist of what a prudent person should do before deciding to buy a PSA slabbed card shatters any notion that TPG comes close to accomplishing this. It IS ridiculous that one would have to check off the items on Peter's list before going ahead with a purchase, and the fact it has IMO portends a not-so-rosy future for certain categories of PSA slabbed cards.

Peter_Spaeth · #24 11-25-2019, 08:21 AM

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

Johnny630 · #25 11-25-2019, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

Peter your impression which I believe to be 100% true is the reason nothing will change....the altering businesses will continue, PSA will will continue to thrive, the collectors are the last thing PSA Cares About.

tschock · #26 11-25-2019, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

I think "done much" is the key phrase here. I have bought graded cards (though not many), BUT I didn't buy the cards because they were graded. I will still buy cards that are graded but will scrutinize and make appropriate offers on them as if they weren't. I think quite a few people here are at least of the same mind set. That's not much, but I am looking at the cards more closely and not enamored by someone else's opinion.

Fuddjcal · #27 11-25-2019, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

Well, you all know what I'm doin....I'm Nancy Reagan, "Just Say No" to all of it.

Why anyone would want to continue to add to what already is easily a Billion $$$$$ fraud is beyond me? It is mind boggling actually. If one has to work with Peter's checklist before buying a stupid card, I don't see the fun or funny in it, honestly.

Ponzi's customers didn't want to believe the sky was falling either and kept adding to it too, much like this PSA SCAM. It's just the sad state of the human condition which is actually most fascinating thing in all this that I enjoy following. Even when they know it's a fraudulent billion dollar scam they can't take the foot off the pedal.

A nice little 2007 recession would shake things up a little.

Goudey77 · #28 11-25-2019, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Well, you all know what I'm doin....I'm Nancy Reagan, "Just Say No" to all of it.

Why anyone would want to continue to add to what already is easily a Billion $$$$$ fraud is beyond me? It is mind boggling actually. If one has to work with Peter's checklist before buying a stupid card, I don't see the fun or funny in it, honestly.

Ponzi's customers didn't want to believe the sky was falling either and kept adding to it too, much like this PSA SCAM. It's just the sad state of the human condition which is actually most fascinating thing in all this that I enjoy following. Even when they know it's a fraudulent billion dollar scam they can't take the foot off the pedal.

A nice little 2007 recession would shake things up a little.

If there was another recession I would buy even more.

mq711 · #29 11-25-2019, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

I’m not a big fish but haven’t submitted anything to PSA nor purchased anything from PWCC since I found out about this scandal. Decided to work on a midgrade, raw 1960s set just to keep my interest in the hobby alive.

Perfect example of my feelings is a 1969 Mays PSA 9 on EBay, all I can see is how short the card is in the holder (over 1/16 inch or 1cm) and thus wouldn’t buy it at any price.

whitehse · #30 11-26-2019, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My impression is that even here, most people haven't done much to change their buying routine in response to the scandal. If I am wrong I would be very interested to hear what people are doing differently.

I am but a minnow in an extremely large pond when it comes to grading but I did have about ten raw cards I considered sending to PSA as I had hoped for decent grades and being able to sell them for a profit. When this scandal broke I decided the last thing I wanted to do was contribute to the lunacy and have not and will not send those cards in.

I have recently bought already graded cards only because I was buying the card and the graded price and raw price was almost identical. These were low to mid grade cards that obviously have not been doctored and will likely be taken out of their slabs soon.

Reading the Blowout forums as well as a few others, there are certainly far to many people who speak out of both sides of their mouth when they say something needs to be done about this scandal yet send in their cards for grading. When and where do collectors take a stand is a question only each person can answer for themselves.

bobbyw8469 · #31 11-26-2019, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitehse

I am but a minnow in an extremely large pond when it comes to grading but I did have about ten raw cards I considered sending to PSA as I had hoped for decent grades and being able to sell them for a profit. When this scandal broke I decided the last thing I wanted to do was contribute to the lunacy and have not and will not send those cards in.

I have recently bought already graded cards only because I was buying the card and the graded price and raw price was almost identical. These were low to mid grade cards that obviously have not been doctored and will likely be taken out of their slabs soon.

Reading the Blowout forums as well as a few others, there are certainly far to many people who speak out of both sides of their mouth when they say something needs to be done about this scandal yet send in their cards for grading. When and where do collectors take a stand is a question only each person can answer for themselves.

I think the problem arises is this. Why should I be penalized because of all the crap Moser has pulled???? I am not trimming cards. Graded cards bring more. Period. I understand the boycott PSA mentality, but as I stated....Why should my collection take a monetary hit because of the greed of a few individuals?

Goudey77 · #32 11-26-2019, 04:39 PM

I really don't need to state this to the educated collectors on Net54.
But I want to say the obvious in response to the comment below..You already know the driving factor in this entire hobby will always be about money. Everything is driven by TPG's, Auction Houses, VCP data and the consumers chasing profits.
Everything else is just noise.

It's not a casual sentimental hobby like it was in the 80's and earlier.
It's a foregone conclusion that the show must go on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitehse

Reading the Blowout forums as well as a few others, there are certainly far to many people who speak out of both sides of their mouth when they say something needs to be done about this scandal yet send in their cards for grading. When and where do collectors take a stand is a question only each person can answer for themselves.

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