Question about PSA/JSA "Guarantees"

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

"I don't know for sure"

That is the key part of your posting. Nobody knows for sure what goes on with a quick opinion.

[Exhibitman]

We've got a mish-mash of issues here:

1. Is it genuine? Unfortunately, it is all subjective and speculative unless you were standing there when the item got signed. In court we call it hearsay evidence; I heard from someone else that something happened.

2. Is it certified and what does that mean? People pay for the cert as a substitute for knowledge because no one can be sure of anything they haven't witnessed. It is an expert [hopefully] opinion but many experts are for sale. In litigation we call the process of finding an expert who will say what your client needs him to say "whore-shopping." It is worthless unless the expert happens to have a cachet in the collecting community. Anyone bought a GAI-certed item lately?? And don't even get me started on the odious "auction LOA" that some auctioneers now use. Talk about a popcorn fart--the small print gives you a set time to pay for the privilege of allowing the TPA to certify the item that you are ostensibly buying certified--if it doesn't pass them the 2nd time you don't pay for the submission, but if it does pass you pay the cost for the upgrade to the full LOA. What a great deal, just fills me with confidence. I know the TPA that already did a cursory review of the item will go over it again with a fine tooth comb to ferret out the truth rather than rubber stamping it so as to collect another fee. Sure, and I have a bridge in Brooklyn too, for sale cheap. When you get one of those worthless slips of paper and it is past the deadline, woe unto you--the TPA will solemnly inform you that the auction LOA has expired and you will have to pay the full recert fee regardless of outcome.

3. As a seller is it worth having a TPA opine? Depends. There is a misperception in the collecting base as to what a seller is purchasing with a TPA cert. As a seller I am not buying an iron-clad guarantee it is authentic--truly, that doesn't matter to me since it is just inventory I am moving. I am buying freedom from having to warrant anything when I purchase a TPA opinion. As long as I have the item in one of their slabs with the cert on it--that is critical for the sales effort--I know I can resell it risk-free to me at auction or on Ebay [if it is one of their "blessed" TPAs]. What will a buyer do, say it isn't a PSA/DNA certified item? Now, that freedom comes at considerable expense. If I am selling a common signed card for $9.99, no way do I waste the money--I will refund the occasional bitchy buyer. If I am selling something a lot higher priced, however, I will hold my nose and use the TPA service.

4. As a seller should you cover the buyer's fee for TPA? Not if you want to stay in business. Those TPA fees are very expensive and will eat you alive. Offer to cover those and your business life expectancy will be about the same as a mosquito.

And last, my buyer's perspective: I try to do my homework and buy based on what I see and learn rather than a TPA opinion. That said, I recently purchased a Marciano signed PC with a guarantee from a local seller [I only buy unslabbed from locals so I can readily sue them to enforce a guarantee if needed]. I sent it to PSA/DNA [cost me $$$] and it got dinged. I got my money back but I also ate the TPA fee. I will never, ever do that again--I cannot afford to eat cert fees like that. What that means, in my way of collecting, is that there is no more middle ground for me as a collector. Assuming it looks good to me to begin with, I will either buy a slabbed/certed item or I will pay a rock-bottom price for a raw item on the assumption that it is worth the gamble and with the understanding that I will have to shell out to get a TPA cert on it so I can sell it. The "middle ground" [decent item, reasonable price] is dead to me. And no, I don't particularly care about the sterling reputation of the seller of the item because if I ever want to resell it that person isn't there, it is just me, and I better have a TPA cert or I will be treated as the lowball seller of dodgy raw items.

FWIW, my advice for the OP is to consign the items to an auctioneer who will do the TPA for free or provide its own COA and let them take all the risks. Without a TPA cert you will be treated as the typical Ebay scam artist and see low prices on your items because that, unfortunately, is where the market has gone for the weekend warrior type.

[MooseDog]

Well stated and great post, Adam!

[RichardSimon]

Adam - you have stated "I will either buy a slabbed/certed item" in your post.
Don't you think the seller has bumped up his price to cover his cost of the slabbed/certed item? You are paying for the cert/slab, just not directly to the TPA.

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Adam - you have stated "I will either buy a slabbed/certed item" in your post.
Don't you think the seller has bumped up his price to cover his cost of the slabbed/certed item? You are paying for the cert/slab, just not directly to the TPA.

As a part-time seller, I wish that were the case. My view is that we have seen price contraction. TPA items sell at the same price as items pre-TPA days. Non-certified items sell for less.

[mschwade]

Nice post Adam!

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by mschwade

Nice post Adam!

but see i like the ungraded decent item, decent price. it is a marciano and it is ungraded, and at a decent price. i love that. others will stay away but if i know its good i will get it and i dont care if psa says its bad. i already know its good.

i once bought a marciano signed album page on ebay, it was uncerted, and the photo was a little blurry and a little far away, but i knew it was good, i bought it for 200, it was as good as gold. if psa, or jsa, or the man on the moon ever said no good. i dont care. i ended up selling it for 400 ungraded, with my own guarantee, which was the prevailing going price for marciano, (even WITH a TPA cert, they sell for about 400 bucks). the cert costs about 100 bucks when you factor in shipping both ways. I didn't pay that 100 dollars, and still sold it for the going rate. WHY?

Because there are people out there who know marciano's signature and dont need the tpa cert either, and my lifetime guarantee is a real guarantee, not like psa's no guarantee.


when psa said no good to the marciano, how did you know it was a bad marciano? did you ask a boxing signature expert? psa has no boxing signature expert. they have slabbed several wife signed sonny liston autographs as real sonny liston autographs, and jsa has certed wife signed liston autographs as well, and psa and jsa have both given thumbs down to authentic sonny liston autographs, one of them which belonged to me. I didn't throw it away just because they said no good, by the way. Half my collection could be no good according to them, but i know it was all good, so their opinion means what to me since they get boxing wrong so often? nothing.

You don't need to play the psa or jsa game, it just costs money you don't need to spend. fighttoys.com sets up at the boxing hof convention every year, and does well selling at the memorabilia show, and none of his items has psa or jsa certification. but he offers a lifetime guarantee and honors it. Full disclosure, I am friends with him by the way, Mark Ogren. he doesn't need psa or jsa either. it's a waste of money because they aren't known for boxing at all, what they ARE known for, I don't know.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by travrosty

but see i like the ungraded decent item, decent price. it is a marciano and it is ungraded, and at a decent price. i love that. others will stay away but if i know its good i will get it and i dont care if psa says its bad. i already know its good.

i once bought a marciano signed album page on ebay, it was uncerted, and the photo was a little blurry and a little far away, but i knew it was good, i bought it for 200, it was as good as gold. if psa, or jsa, or the man on the moon ever said no good. i dont care. i ended up selling it for 400 ungraded, with my own guarantee, which was the prevailing going price for marciano, (even WITH a TPA cert, they sell for about 400 bucks). the cert costs about 100 bucks when you factor in shipping both ways. I didn't pay that 100 dollars, and still sold it for the going rate. WHY?

Because there are people out there who know marciano's signature and dont need the tpa cert either, and my lifetime guarantee is a real guarantee, not like psa's no guarantee.


when psa said no good to the marciano, how did you know it was a bad marciano? did you ask a boxing signature expert? psa has no boxing signature expert. they have slabbed several wife signed sonny liston autographs as real sonny liston autographs, and jsa has certed wife signed liston autographs as well, and psa and jsa have both given thumbs down to authentic sonny liston autographs, one of them which belonged to me. I didn't throw it away just because they said no good, by the way. Half my collection could be no good according to them, but i know it was all good, so their opinion means what to me since they get boxing wrong so often? nothing.

You don't need to play the psa or jsa game, it just costs money you don't need to spend. fighttoys.com sets up at the boxing hof convention every year, and does well selling at the memorabilia show, and none of his items has psa or jsa certification. but he offers a lifetime guarantee and honors it. Full disclosure, I am friends with him by the way, Mark Ogren. he doesn't need psa or jsa either. it's a waste of money because they aren't known for boxing at all, what they ARE known for, I don't know.

Trav, you have the luxury of opting out of the TPA racket because you are an expert. If I want to sell something I do need to play the TPA game because I do not have a reputation as an autograph expert. Doesn't matter that the guy I bought it from is an expert or that I conclude that the item is good: that seller isn't there when I sell and my opinion doesn't carry the necessary weight with the consumer when it comes to autographs [yeah, I am an expert in boxing cards--SGC calls me with toughies--but not autographs]. I sent in the Marciano because I wanted to have that TPA warranty for resale purposes. If they won't pass the item it is worthless to me as a seller.

Richard, of course the seller has bumped his price to cover the TPA fee. I don't care about that because I am not merely paying for the TPA fee, I am paying [and I acknowledge that I am paying] a "risk premium" to eliminate the risk of a TPA rejection on a raw item. It is all about fungibility for me. I only pay what I am willing to pay and I only buy what my eyes tell me is good based on my studies BUT if I ever want to resell profitably without relying on an AH, I need the TPA blessing on the item.

I'm gonna say a dirty word: "investment". I am not just a collector. Card are too damn expensive and I am not wealthy enough to treat the Hobby as a hobby. Everything I buy [except for memorabilia of my cousins] I purchase with an eye on the investment potential and resale value, albeit with a long holding period and/or some risks involved. That's one reason why my book only lists actual transaction prices rather than projected prices except where clearly stated as an opinion as to what I think something should cost; I don't want to be accused of pumping and dumping my own stuff. Everything I own [except for memorabiia of my cousins] is for sale--for the right price I will even help you carry it to your car. That said, I gotta be sure everything I own can be moved, sometimes on short notice, because my main business ebbs and flows.

I'm also gonna say a nice word: "aesthetics". I happen to like how cards look slabbed, and I sometimes get them slabbed for display purposes. I like the way they line up in holders, like a museum display for my own private hall of fame. Like these:

[Forever Young]

Originally Posted by exhibitman

trav, you have the luxury of opting out of the tpa racket because you are an expert. If i want to sell something i do need to play the tpa game because i do not have a reputation as an autograph expert. Doesn't matter that the guy i bought it from is an expert or that i conclude that the item is good: That seller isn't there when i sell and my opinion doesn't carry the necessary weight with the consumer when it comes to autographs [yeah, i am an expert in boxing cards--sgc calls me with toughies--but not autographs]. I sent in the marciano because i wanted to have that tpa warranty for resale purposes. If they won't pass the item it is worthless to me as a seller.

Richard, of course the seller has bumped his price to cover the tpa fee. I don't care about that because i am not merely paying for the tpa fee, i am paying [and i acknowledge that i am paying] a "risk premium" to eliminate the risk of a tpa rejection on a raw item. It is all about fungibility for me. I only pay what i am willing to pay and i only buy what my eyes tell me is good based on my studies but if i ever want to resell profitably without relying on an ah, i need the tpa blessing on the item.

I'm gonna say a dirty word: "investment". I am not just a collector. Card are too damn expensive and i am not wealthy enough to treat the hobby as a hobby. Everything i buy [except for memorabilia of my cousins] i purchase with an eye on the investment potential and resale value, albeit with a long holding period and/or some risks involved. That's one reason why my book only lists actual transaction prices rather than projected prices except where clearly stated as an opinion as to what i think something should cost; i don't want to be accused of pumping and dumping my own stuff. Everything i own [except for memorabiia of my cousins] is for sale--for the right price i will even help you carry it to your car. That said, i gotta be sure everything i own can be moved, sometimes on short notice, because my main business ebbs and flows.

I'm also gonna say a nice word: "aesthetics". I happen to like how cards look slabbed, and i sometimes get them slabbed for display purposes. I like the way they line up in holders, like a museum display for my own private hall of fame. Like these:

like

[toybulldog]

But isn't the ultimate goal to purchase an authentic autograph? Does the Holyfield look legitimate or does it more resemble the common forged version next to it?


Does it even come close to resembling these examples of Holyfields vintage autograph? Would you rather have the Holyfield signed card above or the one below?



Why guarantee an item will pass a third party authenticator when the TPA doesn't even guarantee there opinion?

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Why guarantee an item will pass a third party authenticator when the TPA doesn't even guarantee there opinion?

Because a lot of buyers want that TPA, for whatever reason (some take their word as gospel, some like the protection of a slab, some like uniformity in their collection, and most recognize the market that the TPAs have created and want greater resale value themselves). Whether or not a seller has/wants to use a TPA, buyers sure do. When I have listed autos on eBay without certs, all of the questions I get are about certs.

And what would it mean for a TPA to "guarantee" their opinion, anyway? If an item can be shown to be bunk, not by another person's opinion but actually proven to be a forgery a la laser copies, impossibly dated material, etc, then the TPAs should refund the cost of authentication. They aren't and shouldn't be responsible for the selling price of any item. It is an opinion, not an insurance policy.

[Exhibitman]

Truth is a slippery thing, Travis. Did you see any of the autographs you are labeling fake and real signed in person? If so, which ones? If not, with all due respect, your opinion as to everything you did not see signed is just an opinion, same as any TPA opinion is just an opinion. Unless I want to collect only what I personally saw signed, I have to rely on opinions. Since all we are really dealing in most of the time is opinion, whether an item "really really" was signed or not is unknowable and as such is entirely irrelevant to the market. Buyers like the TPA opinions. Buyers respect TPA opinions. Buyers pay for the TPA opinions. They don't care about my opinion. Or yours, unless you are a TPA issuing a LOA. If I market that Holyfield signed card raw I might get someone to take a risk for $10. In the slab I can get a multiple of that all day, every day. Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care.

Try this one on for atypical signatures: Look at the Lennox Lewis in the PSA/DNA holder. How can we explain its lack of resemblance to the one below that I got myself at a promotional appearance for the Klitschko fight?

PSA version:



Card I got signed personally:



I can sell or trade the PSA version all day long; mine isn't worth a plugged nickel, though I enjoy it immensely since it reminds of me meeting the champ.

[toybulldog]

Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care.

Selling something and really not caring if it's forged or real? I would hope integrity and conscience would be part of the equation.

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Selling something and really not caring if it's forged or real? I would hope integrity and conscience would be part of the equation.

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

I believe his point, which is one I agree with, is that perception is reality in this area of collecting. Some people here like to say "Either the auto is real or it isn't." That is true, but unfortunately irrelevant, because all we have are opinions and opinions of those giving opinions.

[RichardSimon]

Quote from Adam in post 39:"I didn't see it signed, so I don't know (if it is real). But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care."

Originally Posted by toybulldog

Selling something and really not caring if it's forged or real? I would hope integrity and conscience would be part of the equation.

Mark Ogren
Schenectady, NY

Boy if the top quote is not one of the major things wrong in the autograph hobby then I don't know what is. I know I really, really care if something is real when I sell it, my reputation is on the line with every sale, and if someone GAVE ME a slabbed PSA piece that I believed was not real, I would drop it down the chute of the incinerator room on the floor of my apt. bldg.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Truth is a slippery thing, Travis. Did you see any of the autographs you are labeling fake and real signed in person? If so, which ones? If not, with all due respect, your opinion as to everything you did not see signed is just an opinion, same as any TPA opinion is just an opinion. Unless I want to collect only what I personally saw signed, I have to rely on opinions. Since all we are really dealing in most of the time is opinion, whether an item "really really" was signed or not is unknowable and as such is entirely irrelevant to the market. Buyers like the TPA opinions. Buyers respect TPA opinions. Buyers pay for the TPA opinions. They don't care about my opinion. Or yours, unless you are a TPA issuing a LOA. If I market that Holyfield signed card raw I might get someone to take a risk for $10. In the slab I can get a multiple of that all day, every day. Is the one in the slab forged or real? I didn't see it signed, so I don't know. But if PSA is willing to slab it, as a seller I really don't care.

Try this one on for atypical signatures: Look at the Lennox Lewis in the PSA/DNA holder. How can we explain its lack of resemblance to the one below that I got myself at a promotional appearance for the Klitschko fight?

PSA version:



Card I got signed personally:



I can sell or trade the PSA version all day long; mine isn't worth a plugged nickel, though I enjoy it immensely since it reminds of me meeting the champ.

there is so much wrong with everything you said i cant even start.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by travrosty

there is so much wrong with everything you said i cant even start.

Why....I think Adam is doing an amazing job of describing how many of us feel about the autograph part of this hobby. I never got into autographs because I could never get comfortable if I didn't see something signed in person. That is just me and I certainly do not criticize people who enjoy autographs as much as I enjoy my publications, photos, tickets, etc.

Jeff

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

That is the key part of your posting. Nobody knows for sure what goes on with a quick opinion.

it's a secret, they don't want people to know. if people knew, they would probably be shocked to find out some guy they most likely never heard of that's probably not listed on their website and has ? hobby credentials has power to knock their item off of ebay. I use 'most likely' and 'probably' also because again, like Richard said, no one knows, which is the way they want it.

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by travrosty

it's a secret, they don't want people to know. if people knew, they would probably be shocked to find out some guy they most likely never heard of that's probably not listed on their website and has ? hobby credentials has power to knock their item off of ebay. I use 'most likely' and 'probably' also because again, like Richard said, no one knows, which is the way they want it.

To me, all of this is irrelevant because whoever gives the "likely genuine" tag will be backed up when and if the item is submitted for full authentication. I have yet to see a "likely genuine" fail further inspection. I'm not a huge fan of PSA or JSA but the fact remains that they created a market. PSA items sell for a premium and there are more buyers for their items. I wish it wasn't true but since it is, I have to play ball.

[HOF Auto Rookies]

I like having the protected slabs, could care less about authenticity because I don't sell. Nice if you drop them you don't need to worry about it flying out of a top loader or whatever or move around too much (depending on card etc). And unfortunately, re-sell value with a sticker goes waaaaay up (depending on item).

[thenavarro]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

I have yet to see a "likely genuine" fail further inspection.

I have personally had PSA/DNA fail items that I submitted that had received "likely genuine" when I purchased the quick opinion.

Tends to make me mad as hell when it happens, but it does happen. Had one within the past couple weeks as a matter of fact.

Mike

[cjedmonton]

Wow, my head is spinning from all this insight!

Since the overall lot only has a few autographed items (< 10), I'm now leaning toward finding a single buyer or consign to an auction house who will provide certs from a TPA.

As for the bulk of the lot, authentication is not a concern (programs, pennants, etc...). Even so, I'm not looking forward to all the scanning.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

To me, all of this is irrelevant because whoever gives the "likely genuine" tag will be backed up when and if the item is submitted for full authentication. I have yet to see a "likely genuine" fail further inspection. I'm not a huge fan of PSA or JSA but the fact remains that they created a market. PSA items sell for a premium and there are more buyers for their items. I wish it wasn't true but since it is, I have to play ball.

you only think they sell for a premium, they don't, and too many people have the 'i have to play ball' mentality, that allows psa and jsa to get away with what they get away with and not provide true customer service and an accurate opinion. they have too many customers 'playing ball' that they can do whatever they want and the customers come back for more.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Plinvestments

To me, all of this is irrelevant because whoever gives the "likely genuine" tag will be backed up when and if the item is submitted for full authentication. I have yet to see a "likely genuine" fail further inspection. I'm not a huge fan of PSA or JSA but the fact remains that they created a market. PSA items sell for a premium and there are more buyers for their items. I wish it wasn't true but since it is, I have to play ball.

you only think they sell for a premium, they don't, and too many people have the 'i have to play ball' mentality, that allows psa and jsa to get away with what they get away with and not provide true customer service and an accurate opinion. they have too many customers 'playing ball' that they can do whatever they want and the customers come back for more, many of them even admitting they don't like it and think these companies leave a lot to be desired. The companies get away with it because the customers let them. If people withheld their dollars until they got their act together, they would have to change, but customers don't, so we just get a lot more of the same and it will be that way forever unless people wake up. I have sold hundreds and hundreds of boxing autographs at good prices and I didn't pay for the non-expert opinion of these companies.

disclosure: I have sent a grand total of two autographs to jsa a few years ago when i didn't know any better, and I realized no extra profit and actually a loss on an item because I got the same price that I would have gotten without authentication, and I couldn't recoup my authentication fee by an increase in sale price.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by travrosty

you only think they sell for a premium, they don't, and too many people have the 'i have to play ball' mentality, that allows psa and jsa to get away with what they get away with and not provide true customer service and an accurate opinion. they have too many customers 'playing ball' that they can do whatever they want and the customers come back for more, many of them even admitting they don't like it and think these companies leave a lot to be desired. The companies get away with it because the customers let them. If people withheld their dollars until they got their act together, they would have to change, but customers don't, so we just get a lot more of the same and it will be that way forever unless people wake up. I have sold hundreds and hundreds of boxing autographs at good prices and I didn't pay for the non-expert opinion of these companies.

disclosure: I have sent a grand total of two autographs to jsa a few years ago when i didn't know any better, and I realized no extra profit and actually a loss on an item because I got the same price that I would have gotten without authentication, and I couldn't recoup my authentication fee by an increase in sale price.

I know zero about boxing, but certed baseball autos certainly sell for more on eBay than uncerted.