This is the problem with grading...

[Spartan]

I can't wait to see where the commentary goes on this, it looks worthy of a DATELINE NBC story......... I'm puzzled at the quick turnaround, and two sales ... still confused on those logistics, but I'll go back and re-read, or follow the rest of the posts forthcoming....... read from a distance.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by Spartan

I'm puzzled at the quick turnaround, and two sales ... still confused on those logistics, but I'll go back and re-read, or follow the rest of the posts forthcoming....... read from a distance.

First auction closed July 22. In all likelihood the buyer submitted the card in person at the National.

Edit to add Probstein's response from CU.

hi guys,
every major auction house , including memory lane, heritage , mile high , huggins and scott , etc.... opens their items for auction up for VIEWING....
during this VIEWING period both dealers and collectors review the inventory for sale and decide which items they wanna bid on...
( sometimes they bring this inventory to shows for people to review as well )
yes, these dealers and collectors look for cards/items that may bump or sets or lots that may have great break value for resale or items that may be undervalued or just items they wanna buy for their collections...

probstein123 functions like a major auction in this fashion and we have a large pool of dealers who look at items to bid upon....
probstein123 is not aware of which items they like, nor which items they bid upon....we are busy posting , shipping , and handling close to 10,000 auctions monthly.....
none of these dealers are probstein staff and they all conduct their bids apart from probstein123 knowledge....we don't micro-manage the process - just like the major auction houses....
people bid on items they like...probstein123 is managed by the guidelines set forth by ebay trust and safety and we don't bid on our own items....

if you are interested in setting up viewing of auctions with probstein123 like other dealers and collectors, please feel free to call me at 973 747 6304....

thanks
rick

[barrysloate]

Lots of cards get resubmitted, and some do get half grade bumps. Nothing unusual about that. But a full two grade bump to a perfect 10, when the card is clearly not a 10? That should cause some raised eyebrows.

[Davy_Kangaroo_Jones]

Wow that's messed up.

[cardbroker]

Shell card has no business in a 10. 3 print marks on back with a print dot in the green emblem on front. Bottom corners do not come to a point. First grade was accurate. 8.5 tops.

I am not sure if the 2nd card is the same card. Possibly a bad scan. Markings do not seem to match up but nevertheless this card is a 7.5 at best. Just from the scan you can tell 3 corners have touches. 7 was an accurate grade.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

In my opinion, the way PSA has continued to handled this debacle has significantly hurt their credibility as a company who provides a quality service.

Also consider this. In my opinion the '73 Shell looks like an 8, so the latest buyer overpaid by about $3100. But there's also another victim. The 1973 Topps Art Shell PSA 10 is now a pop 2. The other PSA 10 card has, at least theoretically, now been significantly devalued since the supply has now artificially doubled.

By the way, whether many people know this or not, many deleted CU Board threads do get saved by Google's webcache feature.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

[smotan_02]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

.

By the way, whether many people know this or not, many deleted CU Board threads do get saved by Google's webcache feature.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Thank you for pointing this out. Can you post the other pages of the thread? I can't search it from an iPad. Thank you

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by smotan_02

Thank you for pointing this out. Can you post the other pages of the thread? I can't search it from an iPad. Thank you

For whatever reason, some pages only have one or several posts, but here’s the rest:



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a





Another relevant “poofed” thread



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a



http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

[travrosty]

if they collect the number, then take the card out of the holder and sell the numbered holder.

i have the number 6 on sale right now, only 3,000 dollars. pretty cheap considering.


buying any modern card produced in enormous qty, most in superb collectable condition , just because of the number 10 on the holder, and buying it for 10's of thousands of dollars is stupid.

It used to be everyone knew what stupid was. now we disagree because everyones feelings are hurt at the drop of a hat?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

In my opinion, the way PSA has continued to handled this debacle has significantly hurt their credibility as a company who provides a quality service.

Also consider this. In my opinion the '73 Shell looks like an 8, so the latest buyer overpaid by about $3100. But there's also another victim. The 1973 Topps Art Shell PSA 10 is now a pop 2. The other PSA 10 card has, at least theoretically, now been significantly devalued since the supply has now artificially doubled.

By the way, whether many people know this or not, many deleted CU Board threads do get saved by Google's webcache feature.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

Dan, he didn't overpay. He got exactly what he wanted -- a PSA 10 to add to his registry set. If he cared about the condition of the actual card, he could have returned it, or sent it to PSA to review. Instead, he added it happily to his registry set. We always say, buy the card, not the label, but there are folks to whom the label is just as -- or more -- important.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

We always say, buy the card, not the label, but there are folks to whom the label is just as -- or more -- important.

Sad, but very true. That's part of what I meant by the title of this thread, "This is the problem with grading..."

The grading companies have taken a hobby and turned it into a competition. And we wonder why many kids take no interest in this hobby?

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The grading companies have taken a hobby and turned it into a competition. And we wonder why many kids take no interest in this hobby?

Grading didn’t turn this hobby into a competition it’s been competitive as are most hobbies car, art, gem, rare book collecting etc.

What grading companies did was find a way to capitalize on the underlined competition.

Some collectors choose to get caught up in this and some not so much, but at the end of the day the very root of all collecting has a competitive side grading companies didn’t create that. You’re giving these guys too much credit.

Cheers,

John

[Jay Wolt]

The grading companies have taken a hobby and turned it into a competition. And we wonder why many kids take no interest in this hobby?

Not all who collect PSA/SGC/Beckett cards do it to compete. There are some that do & good for them.
And a bunch like myself are content getting the cards we like at the prices we can afford.
And I'm not sure about the parallel about grading companies being a detriment to kids collecting.
I'd give more blame to card companies that retail packs at $5, $10, $20 and higher.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dan, he didn't overpay. He got exactly what he wanted -- a PSA 10 to add to his registry set. If he cared about the condition of the actual card, he could have returned it, or sent it to PSA to review. Instead, he added it happily to his registry set. We always say, buy the card, not the label, but there are folks to whom the label is just as -- or more -- important.

Peter,

There's no dispute that there's an abundant amount of truth to what you wrote. But it's my opinion that a lot of collectors have bought into the marketing aspect of third party grading without scrutizing all the "technical" aspects of this type of service to the extent of what has been revealed on this message board over the years.

Here's one example of a quote from PSA's website:

"By providing the advantage of protection of impartial, third-party grading, PSA has created a market in which collectors can participate with complete confidence and trust."

What I highlighted in bold speaks volumes in itself. I believe there are collectors who buy 10s and even don't bother scrutinizing the condition of the card since they base all of their trust and confidence in PSA anyway. Undoubtedly some will say, "If PSA says it's a 10, then it is".

http://www.psacard.com/about/why_psa_and_psadna.chtml

I don't think there's any question there are collectors who do have complete trust and confidence in PSA as the result of beng indoctrinated into this intense, on-going marketing campaign. PSA devotes a lot of their energy bragging about how many record sales were attained, but I don't recall ever reading anything regarding how they've improved their methods of alteration detection, etc.

But as I've said before, nobody has ever graded the graders. What's the measurable reliability of how good they are at what they do? Are they 99.9% accurate or only 75% accurate? Obviously when there is a lot of money involved it makes a difference - at least to me.

[Peter_Spaeth]

The good news, if there is any, is that from talking to guys who submit a lot, PSA tends to undergrade a lot more than they overgrade. And the frequency with which grades change on resubmission suggests to me that multiple graders are NOT looking at each card.

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by Spartan

I can't wait to see where the commentary goes on this, it looks worthy of a DATELINE NBC story......... I'm puzzled at the quick turnaround, and two sales ... still confused on those logistics, but I'll go back and re-read, or follow the rest of the posts forthcoming....... read from a distance.

[David R]

There definitely seems to be something amiss here to me, which is troubling. What is equally troubling to me, however, is the level of incivility that has crept into some of the recent threads on here. I like a good spirited debate, but there seems to be a recent increase in mean-spirited posts. :-(

[Deertick]

Originally Posted by David R

There definitely seems to be something amiss here to me, which is troubling. What is equally troubling to me, however, is the level of incivility that has crept into some of the recent threads on here. I like a good spirited debate, but there seems to be a recent increase in mean-spirited posts. :-(

+1000000

I have been wondering the same thing. I am officially calling for a one day cease-fire so all pantiesinawad thread participants can go get laid. That usually calms me down and resets my outlook immensely.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by bcauley

don't you people have a life??!

[CMIZ5290]

Bcauley, you might be the biggest idiot of them all.... By the way, do you have a life??????????

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Bcauley, you might be the biggest idiot of them all.... By the way, do you have a life??????????

Dude, seriously? I started reading the thread and got to that post (which I think was one of the first), saw the thing about Dateline, and figured I'd actually have fun with it.

Really, if you're THAT spun up about this, you should probably take a step back, go turn on the news, and see that there are far more important things going on in the world. Either that, or just lighten up.

Now, back to reading pages 2 through however long this thing is.

[calvindog]

Fellas, circumstantial evidence can be "proof." And it's very powerful evidence in court. We don't require CSI-level "proof" to conclude a fraud is afoot. In addition, short of a Perry Mason-type confession on Net 54, circumstantial evidence is usually as good as you'll find in these situations.

[BCauley]

Well, after scanning through the thread, it looks fishy to me. BUT, that's all I can really pull from it. I figure a card's grade can be different, though hopefully in the same neighborhood, any day of the week. It is after all, human beings doing the grading and we all know that we are not perfect. However, I think it's pretty obvious that there are side deals that go on all the time in many facets of work and life and I wouldn't expect card grading to be immune to this aspect.

This particular situation though just doesn't sit well with me, though that's probably mostly due to my cynical nature.

[smtjoy]

Kevin I have a question for you, have you ever consigned any items to Probstein123 or any other ebay consignment sellers?

[Bigdaddy]

I did not know you could shill a Shell, Sam I am.

Seriously, there are two distinct, shady actions going on here. The first is shilling. I believe most folks on here think it is wrong in any case, though a small number believe that it is OK, at least in some circumstances. Fine, we can agree to disagree, though most auction sites disallow this practice because it undermines their creditability.

The second is the significant bumping of a grade by PSA, which underscores the subjectivity (at best) or favoritism to certain submitters (at worst) of the whole grading business. While this may provide short term profits for the sellers, surely the more widespread and known this practice becomes, the less creditability that the graders will retain. If a TPG can bump the same card up two grades and increase it's 'value' (and I use the term lightly) that much, is it really different than a fraudelent autograph authenticator taking a forged Mantle 8x10 (that is worth no more than the cost of the photo, say $5) and authenticating it, thereby increasing it's value 500x? The problem here lies strictly with the TPG, not the folks resubmitting the cards. They are only playing the system as it is set up, much like all of us who take advantage of tax breaks that have been allowed by the gov't.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I did not know you could shill a Shell, Sam I am.

Not bad! How about:

"Sally sells shilled Shells by the seashore."

Now say that three times!

[howard38]

/

[frankbmd]

Shall I Shill my Shell today?
Is the question of the day.

What would somebody pay?
With the corners cropped away.

Yeah, I’d like to make a buck
But with my incredible luck

I wouldn’t get a 10
And have to submit again.

With whom should I consign?
Perhaps a friend of mine.

What chance of being caught?
I figure close to naught

Is there a jail for shillers?
Does it have bars or pillars?

What games do shillers play?
To pass the time away.

Do they shill each other?
or do they shill their mother?

And what’s a shiller’s savior?
Release for good behavior.

Shall I shill my Shell today?
It’s my will - I’ll find a way

What would somebody pay?
One or two or perhaps 3K.

[Ease]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Shall I Shill my Shell today?
Is the question of the day.

What would somebody pay?
With the corners cropped away.

Yeah, I’d like to make a buck
But with my incredible luck

I wouldn’t get a 10
And have to submit again.

With whom should I consign?
Perhaps a friend of mine.

What chance of being caught?
I figure close to naught

Is there a jail for shillers?
Does it have bars or pillars?

What games do shillers play?
To pass the time away.

Do they shill each other?
or do they shill their mother?

And what’s a shiller’s savior?
Release for good behavior.

Shall I shill my Shell today?
It’s my will - I’ll find a way

What would somebody pay?
One or two or perhaps 3K.

Very nice, love it !

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Shall I Shill my Shell today?
Is the question of the day.

What would somebody pay?
With the corners cropped away.

Yeah, I’d like to make a buck
But with my incredible luck

I wouldn’t get a 10
And have to submit again.

With whom should I consign?
Perhaps a friend of mine.

What chance of being caught?
I figure close to naught

Is there a jail for shillers?
Does it have bars or pillars?

What games do shillers play?
To pass the time away.

Do they shill each other?
or do they shill their mother?

And what’s a shiller’s savior?
Release for good behavior.

Shall I shill my Shell today?
It’s my will - I’ll find a way

What would somebody pay?
One or two or perhaps 3K.

Do they need an attorney?
There's a bully they should see.

[calvindog]

Come one, come all.

Bullies need expensive cards too.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Shall I Shill my Shell today?
Is the question of the day.

What would somebody pay?
With the corners cropped away.

Yeah, I’d like to make a buck
But with my incredible luck

I wouldn’t get a 10
And have to submit again.

With whom should I consign?
Perhaps a friend of mine.

What chance of being caught?
I figure close to naught

Is there a jail for shillers?
Does it have bars or pillars?

What games do shillers play?
To pass the time away.

Do they shill each other?
or do they shill their mother?

And what’s a shiller’s savior?
Release for good behavior.

Shall I shill my Shell today?
It’s my will - I’ll find a way

What would somebody pay?
One or two or perhaps 3K.

Great stuff! Dr. Suess would be proud!

I'm revising my tongue-twister:

"Sally sells shilled sham Shells by the seashore."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Is the use of a hidden reserve fraudulent/criminal?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Is the use of a hidden reserve fraudulent/criminal?

On eBay, aren't all reserves hidden until they're met or unless the seller is willing to divulge that information?

Or am I missing something?

[BCauley]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

On eBay, aren't all reserves hidden until they're met or unless the seller is willing to divulge that information?

Correct

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

On eBay, aren't all reserves hidden until they're met or unless the seller is willing to divulge that information?

Or am I missing something?

Right, I was thinking more of a situation where the FACT of a reserve is hidden in addition to the amount.

[mark evans]

It seems to me that we need to distinguish between shilling where the auction house is complicit and not. As to the former, hopefully the Mastro prosecution will put the fear of God in those who would otherwise engage in the practice. [If not, and given the limited resources of law enforcement, I once suggested adoption of a hobby code of ethics to be enforced by a sort of inspector general to address shilling and other issues. This proposal was rejected as unworkable by pretty much everyone who commented. Maybe so, I don't know.]

As to shilling by a consignor or his confederates, this strikes me as more difficult to prohibit. I am inclined to agree with Peter that so long as the winning bidder pays the commission, that's the best that can be expected.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Is the use of a hidden reserve fraudulent/criminal?

If I answer this question will it be deemed that I am not enjoying the hobby?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

If I answer this question will it be deemed that I am not enjoying the hobby?

maybe

[BlueDevil89]

Originally Posted by BCauley

+1 for BCauley (that's pretty funny)