This is the problem with grading...

BCauley · #1 08-17-2012, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spartan

I can't wait to see where the commentary goes on this, it looks worthy of a DATELINE NBC story......... I'm puzzled at the quick turnaround, and two sales ... still confused on those logistics, but I'll go back and re-read, or follow the rest of the posts forthcoming....... read from a distance.

David R · #2 08-17-2012, 08:04 PM

There definitely seems to be something amiss here to me, which is troubling. What is equally troubling to me, however, is the level of incivility that has crept into some of the recent threads on here. I like a good spirited debate, but there seems to be a recent increase in mean-spirited posts. :-(

Deertick · #3 08-17-2012, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

There definitely seems to be something amiss here to me, which is troubling. What is equally troubling to me, however, is the level of incivility that has crept into some of the recent threads on here. I like a good spirited debate, but there seems to be a recent increase in mean-spirited posts. :-(

+1000000

I have been wondering the same thing. I am officially calling for a one day cease-fire so all pantiesinawad thread participants can go get laid. That usually calms me down and resets my outlook immensely.

CMIZ5290 · #4 08-17-2012, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcauley

don't you people have a life??!

CMIZ5290 · #5 08-17-2012, 08:19 PM

Bcauley, you might be the biggest idiot of them all.... By the way, do you have a life??????????

BCauley · #6 08-17-2012, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Bcauley, you might be the biggest idiot of them all.... By the way, do you have a life??????????

Dude, seriously? I started reading the thread and got to that post (which I think was one of the first), saw the thing about Dateline, and figured I'd actually have fun with it.

Really, if you're THAT spun up about this, you should probably take a step back, go turn on the news, and see that there are far more important things going on in the world. Either that, or just lighten up.

Now, back to reading pages 2 through however long this thing is.

calvindog · #7 08-17-2012, 09:05 PM

Fellas, circumstantial evidence can be "proof." And it's very powerful evidence in court. We don't require CSI-level "proof" to conclude a fraud is afoot. In addition, short of a Perry Mason-type confession on Net 54, circumstantial evidence is usually as good as you'll find in these situations.

BCauley · #8 08-17-2012, 09:08 PM

Well, after scanning through the thread, it looks fishy to me. BUT, that's all I can really pull from it. I figure a card's grade can be different, though hopefully in the same neighborhood, any day of the week. It is after all, human beings doing the grading and we all know that we are not perfect. However, I think it's pretty obvious that there are side deals that go on all the time in many facets of work and life and I wouldn't expect card grading to be immune to this aspect.

This particular situation though just doesn't sit well with me, though that's probably mostly due to my cynical nature.

smtjoy · #9 08-17-2012, 09:53 PM

Kevin I have a question for you, have you ever consigned any items to Probstein123 or any other ebay consignment sellers?

RGold · #10 08-17-2012, 09:56 PM

Poof

Bigdaddy · #11 08-17-2012, 09:05 PM

I did not know you could shill a Shell, Sam I am.

Seriously, there are two distinct, shady actions going on here. The first is shilling. I believe most folks on here think it is wrong in any case, though a small number believe that it is OK, at least in some circumstances. Fine, we can agree to disagree, though most auction sites disallow this practice because it undermines their creditability.

The second is the significant bumping of a grade by PSA, which underscores the subjectivity (at best) or favoritism to certain submitters (at worst) of the whole grading business. While this may provide short term profits for the sellers, surely the more widespread and known this practice becomes, the less creditability that the graders will retain. If a TPG can bump the same card up two grades and increase it's 'value' (and I use the term lightly) that much, is it really different than a fraudelent autograph authenticator taking a forged Mantle 8x10 (that is worth no more than the cost of the photo, say $5) and authenticating it, thereby increasing it's value 500x? The problem here lies strictly with the TPG, not the folks resubmitting the cards. They are only playing the system as it is set up, much like all of us who take advantage of tax breaks that have been allowed by the gov't.

WhenItWasAHobby · #12 08-18-2012, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I did not know you could shill a Shell, Sam I am.

Not bad! How about:

"Sally sells shilled Shells by the seashore."

Now say that three times!

howard38 · #13 08-18-2012, 07:46 AM

/

frankbmd · #14 08-18-2012, 08:59 AM

Shall I Shill my Shell today?
Is the question of the day.

What would somebody pay?
With the corners cropped away.

Yeah, I�d like to make a buck
But with my incredible luck

I wouldn�t get a 10
And have to submit again.

With whom should I consign?
Perhaps a friend of mine.

What chance of being caught?
I figure close to naught

Is there a jail for shillers?
Does it have bars or pillars?

What games do shillers play?
To pass the time away.

Do they shill each other?
or do they shill their mother?

And what�s a shiller�s savior?
Release for good behavior.

Shall I shill my Shell today?
It�s my will - I�ll find a way

What would somebody pay?
One or two or perhaps 3K.

Ease · #15 08-18-2012, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Shall I Shill my Shell today?
Is the question of the day.

What would somebody pay?
With the corners cropped away.

Yeah, I�d like to make a buck
But with my incredible luck

I wouldn�t get a 10
And have to submit again.

With whom should I consign?
Perhaps a friend of mine.

What chance of being caught?
I figure close to naught

Is there a jail for shillers?
Does it have bars or pillars?

What games do shillers play?
To pass the time away.

Do they shill each other?
or do they shill their mother?

And what�s a shiller�s savior?
Release for good behavior.

Shall I shill my Shell today?
It�s my will - I�ll find a way

What would somebody pay?
One or two or perhaps 3K.

Very nice, love it !

Peter_Spaeth · #16 08-18-2012, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Shall I Shill my Shell today?
Is the question of the day.

What would somebody pay?
With the corners cropped away.

Yeah, I�d like to make a buck
But with my incredible luck

I wouldn�t get a 10
And have to submit again.

With whom should I consign?
Perhaps a friend of mine.

What chance of being caught?
I figure close to naught

Is there a jail for shillers?
Does it have bars or pillars?

What games do shillers play?
To pass the time away.

Do they shill each other?
or do they shill their mother?

And what�s a shiller�s savior?
Release for good behavior.

Shall I shill my Shell today?
It�s my will - I�ll find a way

What would somebody pay?
One or two or perhaps 3K.

Do they need an attorney?
There's a bully they should see.

calvindog · #17 08-18-2012, 11:18 AM

Come one, come all.

Bullies need expensive cards too.

WhenItWasAHobby · #18 08-18-2012, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbmd

Shall I Shill my Shell today?
Is the question of the day.

What would somebody pay?
With the corners cropped away.

Yeah, I�d like to make a buck
But with my incredible luck

I wouldn�t get a 10
And have to submit again.

With whom should I consign?
Perhaps a friend of mine.

What chance of being caught?
I figure close to naught

Is there a jail for shillers?
Does it have bars or pillars?

What games do shillers play?
To pass the time away.

Do they shill each other?
or do they shill their mother?

And what�s a shiller�s savior?
Release for good behavior.

Shall I shill my Shell today?
It�s my will - I�ll find a way

What would somebody pay?
One or two or perhaps 3K.

Great stuff! Dr. Suess would be proud!

I'm revising my tongue-twister:

"Sally sells shilled sham Shells by the seashore."

Peter_Spaeth · #19 08-18-2012, 09:01 AM

Is the use of a hidden reserve fraudulent/criminal?

vintagetoppsguy · #20 08-18-2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Is the use of a hidden reserve fraudulent/criminal?

On eBay, aren't all reserves hidden until they're met or unless the seller is willing to divulge that information?

Or am I missing something?

BCauley · #21 08-18-2012, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

On eBay, aren't all reserves hidden until they're met or unless the seller is willing to divulge that information?

Correct

WhenItWasAHobby · #22 08-18-2012, 09:26 AM

Another problem with this shill issue "as a hidden reserve" argument is that it is cheating Ebay out of the fees paid for a legitimate reserve.

Peter_Spaeth · #23 08-18-2012, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

On eBay, aren't all reserves hidden until they're met or unless the seller is willing to divulge that information?

Or am I missing something?

Right, I was thinking more of a situation where the FACT of a reserve is hidden in addition to the amount.

steve B · #24 08-18-2012, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right, I was thinking more of a situation where the FACT of a reserve is hidden in addition to the amount.

That's somewhat common in live auctions. When I worked for the car dealer we sold most of the tradeins through an auction and nearly every one had a reserve. That reserve was seldom announced. Once bidding ended they'd usually just say "sold" or "sorry too low". Rarely if a buyer was close the auctioneer might tell them how close they were. But that was unusual. The seller was on the podium with the auctioneer, and could lower the reserve if they wanted to.

I'll also say that the auto auction let me see all manner of shenanigans with bidding. Shills, known or unknown - Yep, saw a guy bid up his friends car witout his friends knowledge. "Bids" that didn't have an actual bidder. A bidder who won and literally ran off and left before they could figure out who it was. A sort of reverse shill on a car with problems- 1000 and over the car could be returned, and there was a very quick hammer at 950. If it wasn't dealers only there'd have been a lot of trouble. (Car dealers don't often get much sympathy in court)

Steve B

mark evans · #25 08-18-2012, 09:32 AM

It seems to me that we need to distinguish between shilling where the auction house is complicit and not. As to the former, hopefully the Mastro prosecution will put the fear of God in those who would otherwise engage in the practice. [If not, and given the limited resources of law enforcement, I once suggested adoption of a hobby code of ethics to be enforced by a sort of inspector general to address shilling and other issues. This proposal was rejected as unworkable by pretty much everyone who commented. Maybe so, I don't know.]

As to shilling by a consignor or his confederates, this strikes me as more difficult to prohibit. I am inclined to agree with Peter that so long as the winning bidder pays the commission, that's the best that can be expected.

calvindog · #26 08-18-2012, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Is the use of a hidden reserve fraudulent/criminal?

If I answer this question will it be deemed that I am not enjoying the hobby?

Leon · #27 08-18-2012, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

If I answer this question will it be deemed that I am not enjoying the hobby?

maybe

BlueDevil89 · #28 08-17-2012, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCauley

+1 for BCauley (that's pretty funny)

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