Nobody cares about ebay shill bidding but

Peter_Spaeth · #1 09-02-2013, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The onus is on Rick. It's his business, it's his responsibility to combat shill bidding. When he doesn't, then others have the right to point it out when we see it. Is that really difficult to understand?

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

the-illini · #2 09-02-2013, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

Why would they ever try to fix something that generates more $$$ for them at no risk?

calvindog · #3 09-02-2013, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

Way too much smoke with this guy; it's really impossible to believe he's not either involved or purposely looking the other way. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

bobbyw8469 · #4 09-02-2013, 09:49 PM

That's it boys!! That card is your record holder, pricewise! Now, not the best looking '8' of all time, but it was bid up like it was. Congrats to the winner.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 09-02-2013, 09:54 PM

And the record prices, and the apparent ability to shill with impunity, attract more consignments -- and the beat goes on.

HRBAKER · #6 09-02-2013, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And the record prices, and the apparent ability to shill with impunity, attract more consignments -- and the beat goes on.

The perfect playground for the miscreant and naive both!

ALR-bishop · #7 09-02-2013, 10:05 PM

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 09-02-2013, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

Not when you can retract, Al. Then you can see how high the top guy is and push him up as high as he will go. That is not the same as a reserve.

brob28 · #9 09-03-2013, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

But Al, it may mean little to you as a buyer from a practical standpoint, but potentially a lot from a monetary standpoint.

David R · #10 09-02-2013, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

That's it boys!! That card is your record holder, pricewise! Now, not the best looking '8' of all time, but it was bid up like it was. Congrats to the winner.

Shilling is bad and I would never bid on Rick's cards, but my question is why do the buyers bid up cards like this to all-time highs? Isn't part of the problem that allows this to continue the moron buyers?

David Re1s

btcarfagno · #11 09-03-2013, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David R

Shilling is bad and I would never bid on Rick's cards, but my question is why do the buyers bid up cards like this to all-time highs? Isn't part of the problem that allows this to continue the moron buyers?

David Re1s

If every auction from every auction house reached the max bid of the highest bidder every time you would see a bunch of records get broken. The mere fact that these types of numbers come from this same seller over and over tells me quite a lot.

IMHO he should start a strict policy that shill bidding will not be tolerated and that bids at his auctions are not allowed to be retracted without his consent. Not even sure if Ebay is capable of this or would want to be. But it would greatly reduce the problem if not totally eliminate it.

Tom C

drcy · #12 09-03-2013, 10:24 AM

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

Lat's say, for an example, you place a maximum bid of $400, the $400 being a price you are willing to pay for the card. If you win at and pay $300 when you would have paid $200 without the shill bidding, you are beating cheated out of $100. I'm not a lawyer, but if if shilling is illegal (and I would guess it is), you are being illegally cheated out of $100. And this is an example where your winning bid is $100 under your maximum.

Irrelevant to if you were willing to pay even $1,400 more for that card, having the price artificially (and perhaps illegally) raised by $100 by fictitious bidders is most definitely something collectors should be concerned and complain about. At the very least, what collector wouldn't prefer to use that $100 on the purchase of another card?

vintagetoppsguy · #13 09-03-2013, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

I�ve never understood that mentality either. If the item is shilled, but doesn�t go above the maximum that someone is willing to spend, they don�t care? I don�t buy that. The mindset �As long as it doesn�t exceed my maximum� is not logical. It�s basic human nature to try to get things as cheaply as possible.

If you go to the car dealership with your mind made up that you�re not going to spend over $30K and the car you pick out has a sticker price of $29,995, do you still not haggle and try to get them to come down from the sticker price? Sure you do.

Runscott · #14 09-03-2013, 10:48 AM

Normally sellers shill in order to make sure they get every last penny that you are willing to pay. If they try to get more, they end up selling to their own shill i.d.

But in the case of a few famous/infamous ebay auctioneers, I believe the shilling actually creates a feeding frenzy, resulting in prices that are sometimes higher than market value. Over time a feeling grows in the collector community (among some, but not all) that the auctioneer in question has superior goods, which only exacerbates the 'problem'.

Not sure what ill-advised aberration of a human trait causes some people to participate in such schemes, but it's proven to be an effective business models. Given that ebay gets a cut, I would not expect it to ever stop;if anything, ebay will simply implement additional policies to cover up our ability to prove that anything illegal is going on.

conor912 · #15 09-03-2013, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

Lat's say, for an example, you place a maximum bid of $400, the $400 being a price you are willing to pay for the card. If you win at and pay $300 when you would have paid $200 without the shill bidding, you are beating cheated out of $100. I'm not a lawyer, but if if shilling is illegal (and I would guess it is), you are being illegally cheated out of $100. And this is an example where your winning bid is $100 under your maximum.

Irrelevant to if you were willing to pay even $1,400 more for that card, having the price artificially (and perhaps illegally) raised by $100 by fictitious bidders is most definitely something collectors should be concerned and complain about. At the very least, what collector wouldn't prefer to use that $100 on the purchase of another card?

That's a rational thought, but often times a collector's emotions will dropkick his rationale and leave it for dead during the auction process.

WhenItWasAHobby · #16 09-02-2013, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

A recent sighting?

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