Nobody cares about ebay shill bidding but

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by arexcrooke

I find your second statement interesting.
Last week in the card doctor thread you were talking about how to improve the hobby by outing card doctors, shill bidders etc. (which btw I agree with) but yet you, in this thread, put the onus squarely on Rick to do just what you were yelling from the mountain tops about.

The onus is on Rick. It's his business, it's his responsibility to combat shill bidding. When he doesn't, then others have the right to point it out when we see it. Is that really difficult to understand?

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The onus is on Rick. It's his business, it's his responsibility to combat shill bidding. When he doesn't, then others have the right to point it out when we see it. Is that really difficult to understand?

Never said it was difficult to understand. Is it difficult for you to understand that just talking about it doesn't do much more than create noise? That if it is to be fixed then steps need to be taken to address it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Law enforcement reads the forum; one can hope.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Guy only paid $100 extra, no biggie.

m***m( 2 ) Retracted: US $1,461.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 18:49:15 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 18:50:22 PDT

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Guy only paid $100 extra, no biggie.

m***m( 2 ) Retracted: US $1,461.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 18:49:15 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 18:50:22 PDT

Sarcasm, correct?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by arexcrooke

Sarcasm, correct?

Of course.

[CMIZ5290]

At the risk of arguments, I don't know how in the hell this card can sell for close to $1500. There has got to be some ideas among the many, brilliant minds on this board. What exactly is going on, and why?? Why cant more coarse consequences take place?

[bigfanNY]

I do not think he is involved either but he runs a business that has the potential to hide problems created by others. First someone who is banned from Ebay can consign with him they do not have to go in front of the rest of Ebay with their Feedback score. They go in front of the Ebay world with His feedback score. Second is the problem being discussed sellers or friends of sellers can run up bids. There are ways to track this by using stats to look at bid patterns for bidders who bid on specific peoples consignments etc. etc. But like another member said not my business to solve his problem..But have no doubt there are ways to solve it. He has 12 million reasons to solve this quickly.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Law enforcement reads the forum; one can hope.

Yeah I would not hold your breath...If eBay received enough complaints about the bid retraction history I am sure they would look into it and would apply pressure to sellers who are using or allowing this to take place.

Question for the lawyers...eBay earns a fee based on the final sale's price so if they look the other way on this type of shill bidding, if one were to sue could they be named in the suit? I figure for selfish reason they might want to step in and attempt to prevent this type of bidding activity.

[Seattle799]

.

[conor912]

I honestly don't understand why (every week) this comes as shock to some people. Rick (or any other consignor) doesn't give a shit, and I can't say I blame them. It's like a big bank that makes $1B on a sketchy deal, gets caught and gets fined by the SEC for $500M. Until the punishment outweighs the benefit of the crime, it's business as usual.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by conor912

I honestly don't understand why (every week) this comes as shock to some people. Rick (or any other consignor) doesn't give a shit, and I can't say I blame them. It's like a big bank that makes $1B on a sketchy deal, gets caught and gets fined by the SEC for $500M. Until the punishment outweighs the benefit of the crime, it's business as usual.

Until the first grand jury subpoena for his records comes.

[Iron Horse]

Was interested on bidding. Took a look at the bid history and the high bidder. 22 bid retractions in 6 months? I'm not sure what is a high #, but that sounds high to me. I may be wrong and i am not accusing anyone of anything.


Bidder Information
Bidder: u***r ( 2026Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1954 Wilson Franks Ted Williams PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 3

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 405
Items bid on: 84
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 17% Help
Bid retractions: 3
Bid retractions (6 months): 22

[conor912]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Until the first grand jury subpoena for his records comes.

Sure...but see my last sentence.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by arexcrooke

Never said it was difficult to understand. Is it difficult for you to understand that just talking about it doesn't do much more than create noise? That if it is to be fixed then steps need to be taken to address it?

I disagree. Talking about it let's others know about Rick's character and they can make up their own mind if they want to do business with him or not.

Rick was made aware over a year ago that Joe Pankiewicz was shilling his own auctions. He chose to do nothing about it and still accept consignments from Joe, and Joe continues to shill his auctions. Arex, what does that tell you about Rick's character?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Member Id: 2***2( 966Feedback score is 500 to 999) US $1,436.00
Sep-02-13 18:13:34 PDT

Member Id: m***m( 2 ) US $1,411.00
Sep-02-13 18:48:23 PDT

Member Id: m***m( 2 ) US $1,361.00
Sep-02-13 18:46:28 PDT

Member Id: e***7( 1291Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $1,311.00
Sep-02-13 18:45:30 PDT

Member Id: 2***2( 966Feedback score is 500 to 999) US $1,295.95
Sep-02-13 17:32:25 PDT

2 feeback guy ran him up as high as he could go, then retracted his bid at 1461. Nice.

[olrac44]

I just can't see how you can expect Rick to have the resources to research each and every one of his auctions to try and detect shill bidding?

If anybody should have the resources it would be ebay but they don't want you to know bidding information as is apparent by masking ebay id's within the bidding activity.


At some point bidders can do their 5 minutes of due diligence then make their own decision on whether they should bid or not.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by olrac44

I just can't see how you can expect Rick to have the resources to research each and every one of his auctions to try and detect shill bidding?

Why are you defending Rick? You're right, nobody realistically expects him to have the resources to research each and every auction. But he does nothing when it's pointed out to him. How can you defend that???

Again, Rick was made aware over a year ago that Joe Pankiewicz was shilling his own auctions. He chose to do nothing about it and still accept consignments from Joe, and Joe continues to shill his auctions. I'll ask you the same question, What does that tell you about Rick's character?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by olrac44

I just can't see how you can expect Rick to have the resources to research each and every one of his auctions to try and detect shill bidding?

If anybody should have the resources it would be ebay but they don't want you to know bidding information as is apparent by masking ebay id's within the bidding activity.


At some point bidders can do their 5 minutes of due diligence then make their own decision on whether they should bid or not.

Because it's been called to his attention time and again here and on CU. And what is he, the CEO of Microsoft that his business is so big he can't possibly know what's going on? Please.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The onus is on Rick. It's his business, it's his responsibility to combat shill bidding. When he doesn't, then others have the right to point it out when we see it. Is that really difficult to understand?

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

Why would they ever try to fix something that generates more $$$ for them at no risk?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

Way too much smoke with this guy; it's really impossible to believe he's not either involved or purposely looking the other way. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

[bobbyw8469]

That's it boys!! That card is your record holder, pricewise! Now, not the best looking '8' of all time, but it was bid up like it was. Congrats to the winner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And the record prices, and the apparent ability to shill with impunity, attract more consignments -- and the beat goes on.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And the record prices, and the apparent ability to shill with impunity, attract more consignments -- and the beat goes on.

The perfect playground for the miscreant and naive both!

[ALR-bishop]

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

[David R]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

That's it boys!! That card is your record holder, pricewise! Now, not the best looking '8' of all time, but it was bid up like it was. Congrats to the winner.

Shilling is bad and I would never bid on Rick's cards, but my question is why do the buyers bid up cards like this to all-time highs? Isn't part of the problem that allows this to continue the moron buyers?

David Re1s

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by David R

Shilling is bad and I would never bid on Rick's cards, but my question is why do the buyers bid up cards like this to all-time highs? Isn't part of the problem that allows this to continue the moron buyers?

David Re1s

If every auction from every auction house reached the max bid of the highest bidder every time you would see a bunch of records get broken. The mere fact that these types of numbers come from this same seller over and over tells me quite a lot.

IMHO he should start a strict policy that shill bidding will not be tolerated and that bids at his auctions are not allowed to be retracted without his consent. Not even sure if Ebay is capable of this or would want to be. But it would greatly reduce the problem if not totally eliminate it.

Tom C

[drcy]

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

Lat's say, for an example, you place a maximum bid of $400, the $400 being a price you are willing to pay for the card. If you win at and pay $300 when you would have paid $200 without the shill bidding, you are beating cheated out of $100. I'm not a lawyer, but if if shilling is illegal (and I would guess it is), you are being illegally cheated out of $100. And this is an example where your winning bid is $100 under your maximum.

Irrelevant to if you were willing to pay even $1,400 more for that card, having the price artificially (and perhaps illegally) raised by $100 by fictitious bidders is most definitely something collectors should be concerned and complain about. At the very least, what collector wouldn't prefer to use that $100 on the purchase of another card?

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

A recent sighting?