Nobody cares about ebay shill bidding but

[bobbyw8469]

That's it boys!! That card is your record holder, pricewise! Now, not the best looking '8' of all time, but it was bid up like it was. Congrats to the winner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And the record prices, and the apparent ability to shill with impunity, attract more consignments -- and the beat goes on.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And the record prices, and the apparent ability to shill with impunity, attract more consignments -- and the beat goes on.

The perfect playground for the miscreant and naive both!

[ALR-bishop]

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

Not when you can retract, Al. Then you can see how high the top guy is and push him up as high as he will go. That is not the same as a reserve.

[Qcards]

I will vouch for Rick's character here. I have consigned many items with him and have been paid promptly and in full for every auction.

What benefit is it for him to have things shilled if he ends up winning things accidentally?

I would say to those doubters that you should use his service first before criticizing.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Qcards

I will vouch for Rick's character here. I have consigned many items with him and have been paid promptly and in full for every auction.

Devil's advocate here. How does being paid on time vouch for his character? I mean, if there IS shill bidding going on, that should not impact on how he pays his for the items consigned to him. In fact, when you think about it from the BIDDING side, his model would HAVE to rely on keeping consignors happy, since that provides MORE opportunity to make MORE money from shill bidding.

Originally Posted by Qcards

What benefit is it for him to have things shilled if he ends up winning things accidentally?

How does he win things accidentally? What about the constant bid retractions? The shills retract until the non-shill wins. So how does he end up winning the item??? Even if he did, it's his cost of doing "business". Sometimes you lose, but most times you win. And enough to cover any "losses".

Originally Posted by Qcards

I would say to those doubters that you should use his service first before criticizing.

Again, CONSIGNMENTS to him have NOTHING to do will shill bidding (if that is going on). But I'm sure there are consignors that don't care about shill bidding since THEY make more money too. Not saying YOU do, just saying...

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT claiming that this is being done, just pointing out how vouching as a consignor doesn't PROVE anything is on the up-and-up when it comes to bidding.

[robw]

x

[nsaddict]

Mike Q. you are way OUT of the loop here! No doubt you get paid in a timely fashion, but that has NOTHING to do with this thread. However, I'm not suggesting Rick shills himself, but does very little to combat the problem. Please explain why a high percentage of his auctions have bidders bidding almost exclusively with him, many that have low feedback with high retractions. Also he doesn't get "stuck" winning items. You need to go back and read the facts here. If you don't get it you never will.

an example... http://tinyurl.com/mna8w3m check bidder with 641 feedbacks

edited to add:
Bidder Information
Bidder: a***c ( 641Feedback score is 500 to 999)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: 2009 Bowman Chrome BLUE Refractor Mike Trout RC 150/150 BGS 9.5 w/ 10 AUTO
Bids on this item: 4

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 167
Items bid on: 72
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 53% Help
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 93

[brob28]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

But Al, it may mean little to you as a buyer from a practical standpoint, but potentially a lot from a monetary standpoint.

[David R]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

That's it boys!! That card is your record holder, pricewise! Now, not the best looking '8' of all time, but it was bid up like it was. Congrats to the winner.

Shilling is bad and I would never bid on Rick's cards, but my question is why do the buyers bid up cards like this to all-time highs? Isn't part of the problem that allows this to continue the moron buyers?

David Re1s

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by David R

Shilling is bad and I would never bid on Rick's cards, but my question is why do the buyers bid up cards like this to all-time highs? Isn't part of the problem that allows this to continue the moron buyers?

David Re1s

If every auction from every auction house reached the max bid of the highest bidder every time you would see a bunch of records get broken. The mere fact that these types of numbers come from this same seller over and over tells me quite a lot.

IMHO he should start a strict policy that shill bidding will not be tolerated and that bids at his auctions are not allowed to be retracted without his consent. Not even sure if Ebay is capable of this or would want to be. But it would greatly reduce the problem if not totally eliminate it.

Tom C

[drcy]

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

Lat's say, for an example, you place a maximum bid of $400, the $400 being a price you are willing to pay for the card. If you win at and pay $300 when you would have paid $200 without the shill bidding, you are beating cheated out of $100. I'm not a lawyer, but if if shilling is illegal (and I would guess it is), you are being illegally cheated out of $100. And this is an example where your winning bid is $100 under your maximum.

Irrelevant to if you were willing to pay even $1,400 more for that card, having the price artificially (and perhaps illegally) raised by $100 by fictitious bidders is most definitely something collectors should be concerned and complain about. At the very least, what collector wouldn't prefer to use that $100 on the purchase of another card?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by drcy

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

I’ve never understood that mentality either. If the item is shilled, but doesn’t go above the maximum that someone is willing to spend, they don’t care? I don’t buy that. The mindset “As long as it doesn’t exceed my maximum” is not logical. It’s basic human nature to try to get things as cheaply as possible.

If you go to the car dealership with your mind made up that you’re not going to spend over $30K and the car you pick out has a sticker price of $29,995, do you still not haggle and try to get them to come down from the sticker price? Sure you do.

[Runscott]

Normally sellers shill in order to make sure they get every last penny that you are willing to pay. If they try to get more, they end up selling to their own shill i.d.

But in the case of a few famous/infamous ebay auctioneers, I believe the shilling actually creates a feeding frenzy, resulting in prices that are sometimes higher than market value. Over time a feeling grows in the collector community (among some, but not all) that the auctioneer in question has superior goods, which only exacerbates the 'problem'.

Not sure what ill-advised aberration of a human trait causes some people to participate in such schemes, but it's proven to be an effective business models. Given that ebay gets a cut, I would not expect it to ever stop;if anything, ebay will simply implement additional policies to cover up our ability to prove that anything illegal is going on.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

....
Not sure what ill-advised aberration of a human trait causes some people to participate in such schemes, but it's proven to be an effective business models. .

I think there are a few people who thought it was an effective model that wish they hadn't. Hopefully there will be more that wish they hadn't also.

[Runscott]

David and David, everyone cares about getting cheated out of money, but since we are certain it occurs with many/most auction houses, then we have two choices: we put in the bid that we are willing to pay, and if we pay less, that's great, and if we suspect there are issues, we let them know. Or we refuse to bid with any auction house that we suspect shills.

I have elected to put my bid in and not worry too much about it unless I see evidence of a problem. There is only one auction house where I have recently been paying my high bid for every single item. Because of this, I might very well quit doing business with them. I contacted them about the issue and did not get a straight-forward answer, but I really didn't expect to. I just wanted to let them know that I felt I was possibly getting screwed. I will probably throw a few bids in for odd items in their next auction, and then report the problem here on this forum if the evidence is compelling. If either of you have a better idea, please let me know - I'm all for helping wiping out auction corruption.

[Peter_Spaeth]

This is the perfect recipe for shilling auction houses and card doctors: resignation/complacency on the part of collectors (and I do not exempt myself); omerta amongst the guilty; and the hope that it's too difficult/not worth it for law enforcement to nail them.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by drcy

I've never bought or understood the semi-regular posted argument that "If you bid at what you are wiling to pay then there is nothing to be concerned about. You got the card for a price you were willing to pay."

Lat's say, for an example, you place a maximum bid of $400, the $400 being a price you are willing to pay for the card. If you win at and pay $300 when you would have paid $200 without the shill bidding, you are beating cheated out of $100. I'm not a lawyer, but if if shilling is illegal (and I would guess it is), you are being illegally cheated out of $100. And this is an example where your winning bid is $100 under your maximum.

Irrelevant to if you were willing to pay even $1,400 more for that card, having the price artificially (and perhaps illegally) raised by $100 by fictitious bidders is most definitely something collectors should be concerned and complain about. At the very least, what collector wouldn't prefer to use that $100 on the purchase of another card?

That's a rational thought, but often times a collector's emotions will dropkick his rationale and leave it for dead during the auction process.

[drcy]

My post was only a response to those who on occasion post "I have no problem with with me being shilled, because I got the card within my price range."