Opinions on Value/Authenticity

[shelly]

Really, how can you say this is a good piece. Here is a Lefty Grove autograph. I dont care what year this was done. Just look and can anyone say that the sheet is authentic. The grove I am showing you has been authenticated by your top two guys. Then look at the F in Foxx and the Frirtz looks like the exact same hand writeing..Look at the Cronin. To say that something is authentic and have him waste his money does not make sence. Just look before you leap.

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[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by shelly

Then look at the F in Foxx and the Frirtz looks like the exact same hand writeing

Great observation!

This is why I don't "do" autographs.

[perezfan]

It doesn't necessarily mean that collectors shouldn't "do" autographs. It just requires some education and awareness. This piece stood out immediately to me as being problematic, as soon as I saw the Grove and the Foxx. Plus, the uniform inks and obvious fact that most were done in the same hand were red flags as well.

But aside from that... there are troubles with virtually every segment of the hobby. If there is money to be made, the bad guys will find a way to corrupt the hobby. An autograph expert might not be able to identify any of the following...

A reproduction Pennant vs. one that's vintage
A touched-up Hartland vs. one that's all original
A restored Bobbing Head Doll vs. an original
A Type 1 photo vs. a re-strike
A reproduction Ad Sign, vs. an original
A reproduction Broadside vs. one that's vintage
A Fantasy Pinback vs. one that's real

The list could go on indefinitely. But that doesn't necessarily mean people shouldn't ever collect those things. It just means you learn as you go (as we all have).

Whichever niche of the hobby you are into, there are obstacles and fakes. Although it might be more common with autographs, it's really no different than for anything else we collect.

[shelly]

+!
On the card side. Spoon, wash,trim and other alterations without telling people.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by shelly

+!
On the card side. Spoon, wash,trim and other alterations without telling people.

It is bad on the card side too....but with a trimmed card there is still some value. With a forged signature, not so much. You guys do a good job and just reading this stuff has helped me spot some fake Ruths. I doubt I ever collect autos but a few have come from just being in the card game. I always appreciate ya'lls help.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ooo-ribay

Great observation!

This is why I don't "do" autographs.

You figured out bats. To me it seems like it would be a lot easier to find an autograph you like, and feel comfortable researching, then purchasing it, than it would be for bats. But I bet you disagree with me.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You figured out bats. To me it seems like it would be a lot easier to find an autograph you like, and feel comfortable researching, then purchasing it, than it would be for bats. But I bet you disagree with me.

I don't really disagree but, years ago, I decided the only autographs I wanted were ones I could get in person. As a primarily SF Giants collector, that's not impossible to do. That is obviously not true for a Ruth collector or a HOF collector or Philly A"s collector or many others. That said, autographs just don't hold much appeal for me.

Now, an autographed BAT? That's another matter!

[jbsports33]

I really do not have a problem with any one feeling the way they do, I have had signatures on many items before and have had similar issues. Sometimes members like Scott are right, but other times you just need to talk to other people then just this board. Many times I have had autos that I thought had no chance and they come back fine. I am just saying that it does not hurt to have them looked at, sometimes JSA, SGC or PSA will work with you - they want the returned business.

My posts had not been directed at Scott either, it was just a general comment I wanted to make that when researching autos - the first place to go is the COA company and see what they say first. Lean on more then one opinion for your research.

I understand I may not have done any real research with each signature - these had just been fast responses on my part and I guess before saying anything it should have been tought out better Happy Collecting

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by jbsports33

I really do not have a problem with any one feeling the way they do, I have had signatures on many items before and have had similar issues. Sometimes members like Scott are right, but other times you just need to talk to other people then just this board. Many times I have had autos that I thought had no chance and they come back fine. I am just saying that it does not hurt to have them looked at, sometimes JSA, SGC or PSA will work with you - they want the returned business.

My posts had not been directed at Scott either, it was just a general comment I wanted to make that when researching autos - the first place to go is the COA company and see what they say first. Lean on more then one opinion for your research.

Jimmy,
Nothing personal as I don't know you, and you are correct that we are all entitled to our opinion, BUT if I read and understood, your remarks correctly, this is one of the worst responses ever.

So what you're implying is that, because the COA companies want the return business, they will "work with you" and certify things that may or may not be real. If a signature is bad, it doesn't matter what cert you have, it doesn't make the auto good. Who you want to ask to find out the authenticity of an auto is not the COA company, it's the people you trust the most to know the subject matter and to be honest with you. I trust the knowledge and honesty of the people on this board waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than I will ever trust the TPAs. At least I know that the people here have no financial motivation to give a falsely positive or negative opinion.

If my interpretation is correct, I'm sorry to say, that I would have a hard time ever buying an autograph from you. Your implication is that if it's certed, you'll sell it as real, even if you don't think it is.
So not true.

If my understanding of your position is incorrect, then I apologize fully.
Best,
M@rk Vel@rde

[Runscott]

I have to completely agree with Mark's post above. Jimmy doesn't seem to have any understanding of the how the TPAs' businesses work;e.g-their incentive to pass autographs, or the level of expertise on this board and in most cases, our lack of incentive to say 'yes' to a forgery.

He also doesn't seem to have any confidence in his own ability to do a little bit of research, which astounds me. If you want to own a real autograph, it is imperative that you learn how to distinguish real ones from fakes.

Jimmy - you are not alone, so don't be offended, but your comments are flabbergasting, not that I am certain what that word means.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by shelly

Really, how can you say this is a good piece. Here is a Lefty Grove autograph. I dont care what year this was done. Just look and can anyone say that the sheet is authentic. The grove I am showing you has been authenticated by your top two guys. Then look at the F in Foxx and the Frirtz looks like the exact same hand writeing..Look at the Cronin. To say that something is authentic and have him waste his money does not make sence. Just look before you leap.

Attachment 153821

The first Lefty Grove sig I ever bought was on a 3x5 and it looks almost exactly like the one you posted. Same pressure as well. I bought mine from RJ Jack Smalling back in the day. Jack Smalling was known for collecting a ton of sigs on 3x5s that he obtained through the mail. I believe most of his stuff was good...although he did sell a lot of secretarials.

But one thing I have noticed is that Lefty Grove did vary his signature a little bit throughout his career. Although, if I read your comment correctly, you're saying the sample posted on this thread is probably not authentic. I think it does look suspect....as do the rest of the sigs on that page.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by djson1

The first Lefty Grove sig I ever bought was on a 3x5 and it looks almost exactly like the one you posted. Same pressure as well. I bought mine from RJ Jack Smalling back in the day. Jack Smalling was known for collecting a ton of sigs on 3x5s that he obtained through the mail. I believe most of his stuff was good...although he did sell a lot of secretarials.

But one thing I have noticed is that Lefty Grove did vary his signature a little bit throughout his career. Although, if I read your comment correctly, you're saying the sample posted on this thread is probably not authentic. I think it does look suspect....as do the rest of the sigs on that page.

Sure he did, but not like this. For that reason you would never buy it alone. And because there are so many other easily-researched fakes on this list, you have another reason for not buying it.

Any time I see an obvious fake, like the Grove, I try to find more examples on the internet. It gives clues as to where the forgeries are coming from. And if I find an authentic one that looks the same, it also keeps me from looking like an idiot.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but all the people who said this piece looks great, must think that the signatures look just like real ones they have seen in the past. But they don't, or we would be able to find exemplars that look like them, and we can't. I would love to see that 3 x 5 that you are sure looks like this one.

[shelly]

Jason, The one I posted is authentic. I was saying how could they say the one on the sheet could even thougt to be authentic.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by Runscott

... I would love to see that 3 x 5 that you are sure looks like this one.

Scott, sure, I'll scan the one I have (that looks like Shelly's) of Grove tonight when I get home. I think I also have a signed baseball card and ball with Grove on it, which I'll also post later tonight.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by djson1

Scott, sure, I'll scan the one I have (that looks like Shelly's) of Grove tonight when I get home. I think I also have a signed baseball card and ball with Grove on it, which I'll also post later tonight.

That's not the one I wanted to see, but thanks.

I wanted to see the one that you said looks like the Grove on this sheet.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's not the one I wanted to see, but thanks.

I wanted to see the one that you said looks like the Grove on this sheet.

I guess we misread each other's comments then. I was responding to Shelly when I said that I had one that looked exactly like his (the 3x5 of Grove that Shelly posted)...not the OP's. Like I stated, I think the Grove from the OP's sheet looks suspect. Grove usually signed smaller and slanted. That example looks tall and light-pressured.

[djson1]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's not the one I wanted to see, but thanks.

I wanted to see the one that you said looks like the Grove on this sheet.

For what it's worth anyways, I'll post the Lefty Grove's that I have. The two 3x5 cards look like the one Shelly posted. I'm not sure about the ball, but it does seem authentic, IMO. Any opinions on the ball are welcome. Anyways, to the OP, they look very different from the one on that signed page.

[shelly]

Jason, just curious who else is on the ball?