Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[drcy]

I have won several Probstein auctions and may have been shilled but I don't sweat it. I do my homework before I bid so that I only bid the maximum that I am willing to pay.

To achieve the same result, if you aren't shilled in an auction do you flush a $20 bill down the toilet? Most collectors would prefer to keep the $20 and use it towards purchasing something else. Let's just hope that by 'homework' you don't mean following past shilled auction results.

[lancemountain]

Originally Posted by drcy

Let's just hope that by 'homework' you don't mean following past shilled auction results.

Yup!

Shilling is everyone's problem

[1952boyntoncollector]

just bid under market value like guys keep saying...........

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

just bid under market value like guys keep saying...........

I suspect this may get interesting.

[lancemountain]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I suspect this may get interesting.

How so? Not sure what last two post mean or allude too.....

[slipk1068]

A couple posts seem to imply that fraud is ok as long as I keep my bids less than market value. No such thing as a true market value if fraud is inherent in the price.

[autocentral]

I try to avoid his auctions as much as possible because of this problem but occasionally I get suckered into bidding. Sometimes it works out without a problem other times you can tell something isn't right. I personally try to set a limit on what I'm willing to pay for a card and not even look at the bidding history if I win the card for lower than my set limit just to avoid any problems. Sure some may say you are still feeding into the fraud of the auction by willing to pay more because someone is shilling but at the end of the day Im happy if I won for lower than my limit.

The ebay seller could really care less about the shilling going on because he profits from it and so does ebay. At the end of the day either bid with caution and a limit or just don't bid on any of his auctions anymore.

-Nick

[christopher.herman]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

No such thing as a true market value if fraud is inherent in the price.

Agreed. I stopped bidding in Probstein auctions years ago. Even if you set a limit and get the item for that amount or less, you still lose money due to shilling and ultimately become part of the problem.

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by lancemountain

Yup!

Shilling is everyone's problem

No it isn't. It isn't Probstein's problem. He keeps getting record prices.
It isn't ebay's problem. They keep getting more fees.

[Jewish-collector]

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

Because the amount you bid could be influenced by previously shilled auctions making the current market price inflated from the shilling.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

[Jewish-collector]

Now I understand. Thanks.

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by Leon

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

If recent history of all completed auctions revealed a price around 100(hence your snipe bid max), then I would only be bothered by the fact that I didn't get a steal, and not that I was shilled up to what I felt was going rate. If I had put in a snipe 100.00 over recent completed auctions, and I was bid up to 195, then I would be pissed, but once again it comes back to being a smart buyer/bidder.

[nolemmings]

If recent history of all completed auctions revealed a price around 100(hence your snipe bid max), then I would only be bothered by the fact that I didn't get a steal, and not that I was shilled up to what I felt was going rate. If I had put in a snipe 100.00 over recent completed auctions, and I was bid up to 195, then I would be pissed, but once again it comes back to being a smart buyer/bidder.

Me too, and as Al said, I don't bid more than what I believe the card is worth to me.

Originally Posted by Leon

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

I would feel the same as if I did a Buy It Now for $100 only to see a similar item sell for $50 the next week. I would feel like I overpaid. But I'm with Al - it doesn't matter to me if the price was driven up by a shill or a hidden reserve - in my mind, an item shilled to $100 was never really available at $50, and if I paid $100 for it, that's what it's value was to me at the time.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

I would feel the same as if I did a Buy It Now for $100 only to see a similar item sell for $50 the next week. I would feel like I overpaid. But I'm with Al - it doesn't matter to me if the price was driven up by a shill or a hidden reserve - in my mind, an item shilled to $100 was never really available at $50, and if I paid $100 for it, that's what it's value was to me at the time.

I think it would start mattering to you if you ever decided to sell your collection, and you ended up only receiving 50% of what you paid minus seller's commission and buyer's premium. So if you had a collection that you paid $10,000 for, and it ended up selling for $5000, and then the auction house takes out the BP of 20% for $1000, and seller's commission of 10% for $400, and therefore your net is only $3600, you would be shaking your head.

The point here is why did you think that $100 was a reasonable price to pay for that card? Perhaps it was because you saw past sales for that card (or similar cards) for $100. However, what if all of those past sales that you saw were all shilled up. Then you would be basing what you thought were completely reasonable prices to pay for cards based upon fraudulent data.