Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[lancemountain]

Originally Posted by drcy

Let's just hope that by 'homework' you don't mean following past shilled auction results.

Yup!

Shilling is everyone's problem

[1952boyntoncollector]

just bid under market value like guys keep saying...........

[slipk1068]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

just bid under market value like guys keep saying...........

I suspect this may get interesting.

[lancemountain]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I suspect this may get interesting.

How so? Not sure what last two post mean or allude too.....

[slipk1068]

A couple posts seem to imply that fraud is ok as long as I keep my bids less than market value. No such thing as a true market value if fraud is inherent in the price.

[autocentral]

I try to avoid his auctions as much as possible because of this problem but occasionally I get suckered into bidding. Sometimes it works out without a problem other times you can tell something isn't right. I personally try to set a limit on what I'm willing to pay for a card and not even look at the bidding history if I win the card for lower than my set limit just to avoid any problems. Sure some may say you are still feeding into the fraud of the auction by willing to pay more because someone is shilling but at the end of the day Im happy if I won for lower than my limit.

The ebay seller could really care less about the shilling going on because he profits from it and so does ebay. At the end of the day either bid with caution and a limit or just don't bid on any of his auctions anymore.

-Nick

[christopher.herman]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

No such thing as a true market value if fraud is inherent in the price.

Agreed. I stopped bidding in Probstein auctions years ago. Even if you set a limit and get the item for that amount or less, you still lose money due to shilling and ultimately become part of the problem.

[sports-rings]

I would exhaust every avenue to nail this guy, believe me. It's not the $62, it is the principle and I am willing to stand up to this crook.

The problem is I can't get on the phone with someone to make this threat!

If that's the way you feel do what I do. And I've never lost a single dollar:

I pay with paypal using my American Express card. When I have a problem, I go directly to American express, not paypal or Ebay. Occasionally American express will ask why I don't go to paypal or Ebay and I tell them that the American Express customer service is responsive and it's difficult or impossible to get an Ebay or a paypal rep on the phone.

American express places a hold on the money through Paypal and then Paypal freezes the money or takes the money from the sellers bank account. (Not sure how Paypal is allowed to do this but they do).

You would be surprised how much more helpful and willing to work out a problem the seller becomes when he no longer has your money and needs to resolve this.

American Express has an investigation process and most of the time they claim they don't receive the proper paperwork from the seller and therefore they often close their investigation and reward you a refund. In the event the seller does supply paperwork, American Express still gets you a refund.

Like I said before, I have never lost a case using this method.

[thenextlevel]

You cannot police it. Some auctions that may seem shilled, may actually be legitimate auctions. You can never prove this. Like others have said, just don't bid on his auctions, or if you do, have a firm price that you want to pay(possible using completed auction comparables).

[Mrc32]

Originally Posted by lancemountain

Yup!

Shilling is everyone's problem

No it isn't. It isn't Probstein's problem. He keeps getting record prices.
It isn't ebay's problem. They keep getting more fees.

[Jewish-collector]

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

Because the amount you bid could be influenced by previously shilled auctions making the current market price inflated from the shilling.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

[Jewish-collector]

Now I understand. Thanks.

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by Leon

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

If recent history of all completed auctions revealed a price around 100(hence your snipe bid max), then I would only be bothered by the fact that I didn't get a steal, and not that I was shilled up to what I felt was going rate. If I had put in a snipe 100.00 over recent completed auctions, and I was bid up to 195, then I would be pissed, but once again it comes back to being a smart buyer/bidder.

[nolemmings]

If recent history of all completed auctions revealed a price around 100(hence your snipe bid max), then I would only be bothered by the fact that I didn't get a steal, and not that I was shilled up to what I felt was going rate. If I had put in a snipe 100.00 over recent completed auctions, and I was bid up to 195, then I would be pissed, but once again it comes back to being a smart buyer/bidder.

Me too, and as Al said, I don't bid more than what I believe the card is worth to me.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Me too, and as Al said, I don't bid more than what I believe the card is worth to me.

Well if you guys don't mind being ripped off by shill bidders could you just send the extra money to me? I guess if you have something and don't know it, and I steal it, it's ok? Sounds good to me.

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

Originally Posted by Leon

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

I would feel the same as if I did a Buy It Now for $100 only to see a similar item sell for $50 the next week. I would feel like I overpaid. But I'm with Al - it doesn't matter to me if the price was driven up by a shill or a hidden reserve - in my mind, an item shilled to $100 was never really available at $50, and if I paid $100 for it, that's what it's value was to me at the time.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

I would feel the same as if I did a Buy It Now for $100 only to see a similar item sell for $50 the next week. I would feel like I overpaid. But I'm with Al - it doesn't matter to me if the price was driven up by a shill or a hidden reserve - in my mind, an item shilled to $100 was never really available at $50, and if I paid $100 for it, that's what it's value was to me at the time.

I think it would start mattering to you if you ever decided to sell your collection, and you ended up only receiving 50% of what you paid minus seller's commission and buyer's premium. So if you had a collection that you paid $10,000 for, and it ended up selling for $5000, and then the auction house takes out the BP of 20% for $1000, and seller's commission of 10% for $400, and therefore your net is only $3600, you would be shaking your head.

The point here is why did you think that $100 was a reasonable price to pay for that card? Perhaps it was because you saw past sales for that card (or similar cards) for $100. However, what if all of those past sales that you saw were all shilled up. Then you would be basing what you thought were completely reasonable prices to pay for cards based upon fraudulent data.

[Runscott]

Regarding ANY crooked seller…

Interesting that when these discussions take place there is always an argument that it is okay to support a crooked seller, as long as you are paying what you consider to be a fair price. Then it devolves into examples of where a lower than 'fair' price was paid for something, which by some twisted logic indicates that, because not ALL of the seller's auctions are shilled, NONE of them are shilled. If you want to support a crooked seller, just support the guy, but don't make excuses as to why it is okay, because it isn't.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by glchen

I think it would start mattering to you if you ever decided to sell your collection, and you ended up only receiving 50% of what you paid minus seller's commission and buyer's premium. So if you had a collection that you paid $10,000 for, and it ended up selling for $5000, and then the auction house takes out the BP of 20% for $1000, and seller's commission of 10% for $400, and therefore your net is only $3600, you would be shaking your head.

The point here is why did you think that $100 was a reasonable price to pay for that card? Perhaps it was because you saw past sales for that card (or similar cards) for $100. However, what if all of those past sales that you saw were all shilled up. Then you would be basing what you thought were completely reasonable prices to pay for cards based upon fraudulent data.

Incorrect math here. The hammer price is the selling price. The sellers commission is taken off of that and the buyers premium is added to that. The buyers premium is the juice the buyer pays to the auction house ON TOP of the hammer price. If an item sold for $5,000 and there was a 10% sellers commission they would give the seller $4,500. If the juice, the BP, was 20% the buyer would pay $6,000 with the auction house keeping $1,500 for their trouble.