Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

Mrc32 · #1 01-13-2015, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lancemountain

Yup!

Shilling is everyone's problem

No it isn't. It isn't Probstein's problem. He keeps getting record prices.
It isn't ebay's problem. They keep getting more fees.

Jewish-collector · #2 01-13-2015, 10:22 AM

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

bnorth · #3 01-13-2015, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

Because the amount you bid could be influenced by previously shilled auctions making the current market price inflated from the shilling.

Leon · #4 01-13-2015, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jewish-collector

I don't understand. If I set a snipe for a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, how can anyone or anything force me to spend more than that ?

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

Jewish-collector · #5 01-13-2015, 10:44 AM

Now I understand. Thanks.

thenextlevel · #6 01-13-2015, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

If recent history of all completed auctions revealed a price around 100(hence your snipe bid max), then I would only be bothered by the fact that I didn't get a steal, and not that I was shilled up to what I felt was going rate. If I had put in a snipe 100.00 over recent completed auctions, and I was bid up to 195, then I would be pissed, but once again it comes back to being a smart buyer/bidder.

nolemmings · #7 01-13-2015, 10:55 AM

Quote:

If recent history of all completed auctions revealed a price around 100(hence your snipe bid max), then I would only be bothered by the fact that I didn't get a steal, and not that I was shilled up to what I felt was going rate. If I had put in a snipe 100.00 over recent completed auctions, and I was bid up to 195, then I would be pissed, but once again it comes back to being a smart buyer/bidder.

Me too, and as Al said, I don't bid more than what I believe the card is worth to me.

Leon · #8 01-13-2015, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Me too, and as Al said, I don't bid more than what I believe the card is worth to me.

Well if you guys don't mind being ripped off by shill bidders could you just send the extra money to me? I guess if you have something and don't know it, and I steal it, it's ok? Sounds good to me.

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

thenextlevel · #9 01-13-2015, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Well if you guys don't mind being ripped off by shill bidders could you just send the extra money to me? I guess if you have something and don't know it, and I steal it, it's ok? Sounds good to me.

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

That really wasn't my point. I was giving you a counter to your example, which I think is fairly logical, no?

#10 01-13-2015, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Let me make it simple to understand. Lets say you have a snipe set of $100. There is a legitimate bidder at $50. Then there is a snipe shill bid by the sellers friend at $95. That shiller isn't going to buy it he just wants to run up the price. His snipe (fraudulent shill) goes off at $95. So your snipe goes off and you win at $100. How would you feel now?

I would feel the same as if I did a Buy It Now for $100 only to see a similar item sell for $50 the next week. I would feel like I overpaid. But I'm with Al - it doesn't matter to me if the price was driven up by a shill or a hidden reserve - in my mind, an item shilled to $100 was never really available at $50, and if I paid $100 for it, that's what it's value was to me at the time.

glchen · #11 01-13-2015, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karl Mattson

I would feel the same as if I did a Buy It Now for $100 only to see a similar item sell for $50 the next week. I would feel like I overpaid. But I'm with Al - it doesn't matter to me if the price was driven up by a shill or a hidden reserve - in my mind, an item shilled to $100 was never really available at $50, and if I paid $100 for it, that's what it's value was to me at the time.

I think it would start mattering to you if you ever decided to sell your collection, and you ended up only receiving 50% of what you paid minus seller's commission and buyer's premium. So if you had a collection that you paid $10,000 for, and it ended up selling for $5000, and then the auction house takes out the BP of 20% for $1000, and seller's commission of 10% for $400, and therefore your net is only $3600, you would be shaking your head.

The point here is why did you think that $100 was a reasonable price to pay for that card? Perhaps it was because you saw past sales for that card (or similar cards) for $100. However, what if all of those past sales that you saw were all shilled up. Then you would be basing what you thought were completely reasonable prices to pay for cards based upon fraudulent data.

Runscott · #12 01-13-2015, 11:51 AM

Regarding ANY crooked seller�

Interesting that when these discussions take place there is always an argument that it is okay to support a crooked seller, as long as you are paying what you consider to be a fair price. Then it devolves into examples of where a lower than 'fair' price was paid for something, which by some twisted logic indicates that, because not ALL of the seller's auctions are shilled, NONE of them are shilled. If you want to support a crooked seller, just support the guy, but don't make excuses as to why it is okay, because it isn't.

thenextlevel · #13 01-13-2015, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Runscott

Regarding ANY crooked seller�

Interesting that when these discussions take place there is always an argument that it is okay to support a crooked seller, as long as you are paying what you consider to be a fair price. Then it devolves into examples of where a lower than 'fair' price was paid for something, which by some twisted logic indicates that, because not ALL of the seller's auctions are shilled, NONE of them are shilled. If you want to support a crooked seller, just support the guy, but don't make excuses as to why it is okay, because it isn't.

Not once did I say shilling is ok. I just don't let it affect me buying baseball cards, bc I pay what I am willing to pay. People having problems with particular sellers have the freedom to either buy from someone else or don't blow money on cards.

Michael B · #14 01-13-2015, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glchen

I think it would start mattering to you if you ever decided to sell your collection, and you ended up only receiving 50% of what you paid minus seller's commission and buyer's premium. So if you had a collection that you paid $10,000 for, and it ended up selling for $5000, and then the auction house takes out the BP of 20% for $1000, and seller's commission of 10% for $400, and therefore your net is only $3600, you would be shaking your head.

The point here is why did you think that $100 was a reasonable price to pay for that card? Perhaps it was because you saw past sales for that card (or similar cards) for $100. However, what if all of those past sales that you saw were all shilled up. Then you would be basing what you thought were completely reasonable prices to pay for cards based upon fraudulent data.

Incorrect math here. The hammer price is the selling price. The sellers commission is taken off of that and the buyers premium is added to that. The buyers premium is the juice the buyer pays to the auction house ON TOP of the hammer price. If an item sold for $5,000 and there was a 10% sellers commission they would give the seller $4,500. If the juice, the BP, was 20% the buyer would pay $6,000 with the auction house keeping $1,500 for their trouble.

phabphour20 · #15 01-13-2015, 01:39 PM

Always fun reading these conversations. I think the reason why so many of Rick's auctions are shilled is the same reason why Rick has so many darn auctions... his rates are the best around. If I'm selling a card over $1k, I will flat out get more money for it (after all fees) if Rick sells it for me. So a lot of people will send him stuff to sell.

Then, to degenerates in our hobby, and they are legion, the third party seller allows you the option to shill your own auctions. Rick really cannot control this. How is he to know that I sent the card and then had my wife bid on the auctions? It is impossible. Same goes for eBay monitoring this. So because he has good rates and gets top prices (partially from consignor's shilling), he gets lots of inventory to sell and attracts degenerate sellers looking for a few extra bucks.

I am IN NO WAY defending shilling. It is despicable and a stain on this hobby. But I really don't think you can fault Rick for it. He has virtually no way to police it, even if he wanted to.

-Brian Ronde@u

slipk1068 · #16 01-13-2015, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I suspect this may get interesting.

I need to make some popcorn

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

I do buy what I want for my collection, at the price I wish to pay. Whether that be from a shilling seller or not

Then you are part of the problem because you are showing your support for the fraud and the price you wish to pay is based on prior shilled prices. For full disclosure I recently won a card I had to have from a known shiller, but I do not feel good about it.

glchen · #17 01-13-2015, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael B

Incorrect math here. The hammer price is the selling price. The sellers commission is taken off of that and the buyers premium is added to that. The buyers premium is the juice the buyer pays to the auction house ON TOP of the hammer price. If an item sold for $5,000 and there was a 10% BP they would give the seller $4,500. If the juice, the BP, was 20% the buyer would pay $6,000 with the auction house keeping $1,500 for their trouble.

Right, of course, but the hammer price is not what you see on VCP. No one asks if the ebay sales price includes BP. I am making comparisons using total cost of a card and your net return.

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