J.J. Clarke's Nickname

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by arc2q

I am perplexed / troubled why we in the vintage baseball world still insist on using J.J. Clarke's nickname, "Nig." You see it commonly used in discussions of the player, Baseball Reference, and even on the label of his PSA cards. There is no disputing the origins of that nickname. According to his Wikipedia entry (for what that is worth) even his wife despised the nickname. So, nearly one hundred years later why do we still use that nickname to discuss the player? And certainly why does PSA put it on the flip of his card? There is no reason to as the card actually refers to him as J.J.

No expert but there was quite a few players with that nickname. I would say why not use it though ?

Everyone else is making very good points here about the native American players being referred to as Chief or even deaf players as Dummy. Those are just as "racist" as JJ Clarke's nickname "Nig" historical aspect racial tones, whatever fact is that is what the player was known as to me that solidifies it enough to not matter.

I'm not entirely familiar with JJ Clarke so I'm assuming he must have had some black in him because in those days to be called that was the biggest insult you could get. Via Ty Cobb beating a heckler (after being called a half-nig) in the stands in NY. Despised by fans and even his teammates (paraphrasing) "I don't look for applause from the crowd but I wouldn't take back from the United States Army what that man said to me that day, and for the first time in my life I was happy the fans were on my side."

If it's good enough for the Ken Burns documentary for historical reasons it's good enough for me and purely they did it in my opinion for a historical aspect as well as well that's what the player was known as.

It's almost like changing your name if your name if Fred Parent for example and for whatever reason in the t206 set he is known as Billy Parent, then why ??? It wouldn't make sense to drop out a players nickname.

[arc2q]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

No expert but there was quite a few players with that nickname. I would say why not use it though ?

The response to that is because it is horribly racist and the origins of that nickname transcend even the upper limits of decency in our society. What was acceptable for 1910-1920 America is not acceptable now.

Historians and documentarians should acknowledge Clarke's nickname, and Charles Bender's nickname, etc. But that does not mean we should perpetuate that insult in casual conversations or discussions of the player's cards.

PSA is not alone at fault -- I've seen J.J. Clarke's nickname used quite frequently even in casual conversation on this board -- but I think it is beyond justification that PSA puts "Nig" on the third line of the label on his cards. The T206 card refers to him as J.J. Clarke (which is interesting in its own right since most T206 cards simply list last name and team). Why must PSA perpetuate that odious nickname when even the card makes no reference to it?

[wazoo]

Originally Posted by arc2q

The response to that is because it is horribly racist and the origins of that nickname transcend even the upper limits of decency in our society. What was acceptable for 1910-1920 America is not acceptable now.

Although I do not agree with the ways of our ancestors in regards to racial inequality, I believe that this nickname now stands as a time capsule and represents the previous ways of what was acceptable in society and how we have grown so far today. When studying history, we do not forget the various, horrible atrocities or leaders, because it has taught us what not to emulate, but still stands as a crucial part of history. It is important for us not to forget the past and for what it's worth, yet I want to make it clear that I absolutely condemn racial inequality.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by wazoo

Although I do not agree with the ways of our ancestors in regards to racial inequality, I believe that this nickname now stands as a time capsule and represents the previous ways of what was acceptable in society and how we have grown so far today. When studying history, we do not forget the various, horrible atrocities or leaders, because it has taught us what not to emulate, but still stands as a crucial part of history. It is important for us not to forget the past and for what it's worth, yet I want to make it clear that I absolutely condemn racial inequality.

I think Wazoo pretty much nailed it. Our country has a lot of history that is reprehensible. But I don't think we should avoid talking about it and pretend it never happened. With that said, I've sold a few Clarkes on ebay, and couldn't bring myself to add his nickname to the listing, even though I am aware of it.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by arc2q

The response to that is because it is horribly racist and the origins of that nickname transcend even the upper limits of decency in our society. What was acceptable for 1910-1920 America is not acceptable now.

Historians and documentarians should acknowledge Clarke's nickname, and Charles Bender's nickname, etc. But that does not mean we should perpetuate that insult in casual conversations or discussions of the player's cards.

PSA is not alone at fault -- I've seen J.J. Clarke's nickname used quite frequently even in casual conversation on this board -- but I think it is beyond justification that PSA puts "Nig" on the third line of the label on his cards. The T206 card refers to him as J.J. Clarke (which is interesting in its own right since most T206 cards simply list last name and team). Why must PSA perpetuate that odious nickname when even the card makes no reference to it?

In all do respect what is racism ? It's just people trying to act out and make something out of nothing to me. I know this can get quite heated so I'll leave it alone at that. That racism only exists because we as people allow it to. To me I see a nickname. To someone who wants to create a fuss they see it as racist.

This world has become way too sensitive. This is dealing with a players nickname way back when. We're not directly calling anybody that by saying his nickname are we ? And as pointed out to me it is just a name it is up to someone else to label it as racist.

I also don't feel as though we should have to point out that we don't agree with what was done and said back then because fact is it was back then. WE didn't do it and WE aren't going around saying nor calling people that now. Over sensitive world but that's just my un-popular opinion. I know that I will now be stoned.

I will say that I suddenly have an itch to get a JJ Clarke t206 with his nickname on it though.

[HexsHeroes]

.

I suspect J.J. Clarke had had some degree of acceptance of his nickname.
That simple opinion is based solely on the handful or two of autographed items
I have encountered (including two of my own), signed by J.J. Clarke, that
nearly all include his nickname.

This is not a "thing of the past". I drive by "N***** Creek" everyday on my way to work. Look it up, "N-word Creek, Kittitas County Washington". Washington State Department of Transportation replaces the sign every time it is stolen.

While the name for the Creek has it's roots in 1890's, even then editorials were written in the newspaper that indicated the name should be changed. It's been 120 years, still nothing. Signs still there. Two years ago, there was an attempt to change it to MacPherson Creek or something, but it never took and the sign remains.

People like to bury the past, or say.... "oh that was just the times", but wake up! Yes it happened yesterday, still happens today, and unless something is done to address it, it will probably happen tomorrow. I don't think it is "overly sensitive" to address wrongs past or present.

[packs]

I've brought this up before and everyone more or less called me a wuss for thinking PSA shouldn't put "Nig" on their flips. I still stand by that stance. There's no reason for them to put "Nig" on a flip. His name is J.J. so they can just put J.J. I see no valid argument for perpetuating "Nig" since that was not his given name.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by packs

I've brought this up before and everyone more or less called me a wuss for thinking PSA shouldn't put "Nig" on their flips. I still stand by that stance. There's no reason for them to put "Nig" on a flip. His name is J.J. so they can just put J.J. I see no valid argument for perpetuating "Nig" since that was not his given name.

I agree that PSA shouldn't but general conversation I have no problem with it. The reason I agree because I haven't seen any nicknames of other players on a PSA slab so why JJ Clarkes ?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by packs

I've brought this up before and everyone more or less called me a wuss for thinking PSA shouldn't put "Nig" on their flips. I still stand by that stance. There's no reason for them to put "Nig" on a flip. His name is J.J. so they can just put J.J. I see no valid argument for perpetuating "Nig" since that was not his given name.

PSA labels the cards the way they are cataloged.

[arc2q]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

That racism only exists because we as people allow it to. To me I see a nickname. To someone who wants to create a fuss they see it as racist.

You are contradicting yourself there. You imply racism exists only because we allow it to but are okay with continuing to perpetuate a derogatory and racist nickname. By your argument, if we stop talking about it will go away...then by all means we should stop using a racist nickname.

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

This world has become way too sensitive.

Tell that to people who continue to suffer the misfortunes of racism in our world. There are billions of people who would disagree.

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

And as pointed out to me it is just a name it is up to someone else to label it as racist.

It is quite clearly racist without someone else having to read between the lines. After all it was based, indisputably, on his supposedly darker-colored skin. Not much room for interpretation there.

I don't think a single person on this board or in the card collecting business is racist, although there is no doubt such racism still exists. That is not my point. I am merely wondering why we can't let that nickname go -- other than when discussing that player in his historical context. I don't need PSA or anyone to remind me of his nickname and find it absurd that they put that on his flip.

[Joshchisox08]

[QUOTE=arc2q;1404043]You are contradicting yourself there. You imply racism exists only because we allow it to but are okay with continuing to perpetuate a derogatory and racist nickname. By your argument, if we stop talking about it will go away...then by all means we should stop using a racist nickname.

Yes I imply that it exists if we turn the word into something. Perhaps I had a poor choice of words. I just see it as a nickname to a player, nothing more.

Someone else may see it as racist and start labeling it and go on a rant about it being racist.

My opinion is the person ranting about it being racist is keeping the racism alive. Just mentioning this players nickname to me doesn't make anyone sound racist to myself. It's just that a nickname. Especially the tone of their voice (though hard to tell in text online).

The word is only racist to those who think it is. I myself don't think that it is.

[packs]

Come on man it is well known that he was dubbed "Nig" by other people because they thought his skin was dark. It is not some innocent nickname. It is inherently racist and carries only racist overtones.

The nickname is there forever. But why does PSA need to put it on the flip? His T206 says J.J. Clarke.

[boneheadandrube]

I see Jap Barbeau waving his arms for attention in the background. Next time anyone submits a J.J. please ask for the flip to read "Toby", maybe you can sell it for a premium as a variation.